Tight minge
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Posts posted by Tight minge
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4 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:
Sometimes war is an intelligence and numbers game. 'Do we destroy this target and possibly kill an estimated ten innocents. Or leave the target alone and they'll possibly kill an estimated one hundred.'
Spending millions on a sword/missle shows the US 'care' a bit.
The US hardly care about their own troops despite all they say. They really have a Gungho attitude. Profit before protection.
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On 28/08/2021 at 05:26, red23 said:
had another chat with her to tell her i can't control the people who are in the bar and that she needs to accept that.
From her point of view She wanted me to leave the bar, like any respecting man would do for their woman.
I told her that her thoughts around this are worrying and just not right.
So her response was that I'm gas lighting her and manipulating her to make it out that shes is the problem and to get her to question her own sanity "unfortunately for you i am a very intelligent woman and you cannot fool me or try your manipulation tactics on me"
Looks like it's back to dating again....which is also a shit experience
Not sure if it is needy, insecurity or something else, but this isn't a good look for yourself.
You are tolerating all this shit by staying with her and your final sentence speaks more about yourself than her. I think you should be rejoicing that you are back (present tense not future) in the dating game after this.
You need to look at yourself first and what you want from a partner/relationship and why.
Maybe the above is very harsh, but wake the f**k up. People that know you and the relationship won't be thinking look at red23 with that exotic bird, they will be scratching their heads and laughing thinking there is something seriously wrong with you.
If you don't like the above, you can dismiss it as some troll on the Internet, if it strikes a chord get the psychotic, racist to f**k.
*If not before, the meal in the Asian restaurant should never have finished. You should have got up and walked out immediately at that point and left her sitting there.
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On 23/08/2021 at 21:17, scottsdad said:
V2 by Robert Harris.
Let me just say that Robert Harris has, as far as I know, never written a bad book*. V2 is another good one, set towards the end of 1944 it centres on two characters. One, a German scientist with qualms whose job it is to make sure that they work whilst being watched by the SS, and the other a WAAF officer who is part of a team trying to work out where they are being launched from, so they can attack it. Excellent page-turner.
*I said the same thing about Gene Hackman movies. Then I saw The Chamber.
Enjoyed this like all Rober Harris a books, but thought something was missing. Reading laterly that it was written in a short period of time during lockdown which may explain it. Still good.
On 25/08/2021 at 21:53, scottsdad said:Just finished To The Eastern Seas by Julian Stockwin. Over the last year I've read almost the entire Kydd series. Just one or two to go.
This book was a good one but, being based in the Indian Ocean, my own geography knowledge let me down. When set in Europe, I'm fine with the story going to Lisbon, Gibraltar and the like as I know in my mind's eye where they are. My Indian geography is terrible, so the travels in and around Calcutta had no real impression on me.
Next up is a coin toss. My neighbour recommended two books, so it'll be one of these. Geoffrey Jenkins, A Twist of Sand, or Glenn Meade, Snow Wolf.
Added this to my list go read as the area, as I see, spans from India to Indonesia sounds interesting for myself. Will see how it goes
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4 minutes ago, hk blues said:
I only flew from Jakarta the once - about 20 years ago so I guess the old airport?
Don Muang (???) in Bangkok used to be my favourite - the 3 hour ride to the hotel was like a mini-excursion and great to see the city like that.
We have a great wee airport here in Iloilo, 15-20 mins from my place but only a few flights a day so no noise problem.
Your showing your age now. Don Muang is a ‘domestic/low cost’ airport now. Go through it every so often.
Yes some of the regional airports in Philippines are cool, same with the wife's local airport in Indonesia. Handful of flights a day, next to no security and not a care in the world.
Coolest airport for me is Songshan in Taipei.
Now cursing Covid while thinking about this
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29 minutes ago, hk blues said:
Our record in Hong Kong from getting off the plane and into the terminal to our front door was something like 40 minutes - that included picking up bags, getting the train to the city and a taxi up the road. Needed everything to fall into place for that though.
Yes Hong Kong is/was hugely efficient and a cracking train into the city. The ferries and back from Shekou we're also great.
Singapore is amazingly efficient.
Soekarno-Hatta International Airport, not so much
Although the old airport was pretty cool.
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24 minutes ago, welshbairn said:
I leave my house 75 minutes before catching a flight from Inverness, and still have time for a pint before boarding.
If needed I could leave the house about an hour before for an international flight (all are international) and make it. Coming home from when I stepped of the plane, I could be in the house in 30-40 minutes. Absolutely spoilt.
When living in Indonesia the 40 minute drive and could take up to 4 hours and there was little rhyme of reason to how long it would take. That was a nightmare.
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11 minutes ago, 101 said:
Exactly for someone that was a marine he doesn't really appear to understand the airport is basically being used constantly either with planes landing or taking off and I don't think they could spend time loading the hold with cargo tbh the place is that much of a shit show I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they didn't have the machines used to load the hold.
It now looks like he will be able to get out and leave his staff behind, if he hadn't spent so long demanding that his animals came with him then they might have all been safe.
He also left his donkeys behind and only took cats and dogs, enough to fit in a bus, so do donkeys lives not mean as much as others? I know men that would die for an Ass
He seems a complete bellend and lacks the understanding, as you say being ex-military, of the whole scenario, never mind the support he has picked up.
I would hazard a guess that every plane and helicopter landing and taking off around there will have a DAS/DIRCM and the pilots, ATC, ground crew well versed in this kind of operation and he is planning in having a charted flight pop in during the middle of it.
Also his message to the Taliban was absurd.
The support he has got is astounding.
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17 minutes ago, 101 said:
The. Worst. Take. Ever.
This whole scenario is mind boggling and the arguments of seats and hold space is kind of irrelevant considering any flight would take a precious take off and landing slot of another rescue flight (which I would expect would have larger capacity for people) never mind consuming other resources.
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8 minutes ago, welshbairn said:
I was very happy to sign, not knocking it at all. I just felt a bit ripped off when I donated with another petition and found out it's not a charity and where the money goes.
Understand fully. I have never signed one of these before and was a little surprised by the donation part at the end but by passed it as it's not relative to this scenario.
Charities, donations, how money is distributed is for another thread!
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Just now, welshbairn said:
Signed, but be aware that donations go to Change.org as a profit making company to do with as they like, not necessarily to promote the issue and definitely not to directly help in any way. If you want to donate there are charities that will make better use of your money.
https://medium.com/@blmopenletter/change-org-donate-to-blacklivesmatter-81273c5520ad
Yes there is a parliamentary petition which would be a better forum maybe, but this was running and over 100k signatures.
Frankly making donations isn’t going to do anything just now as time is not a friend for these people.
If at least its something carrying a hefty amount of signatures that is a reference point it's the best that anyone can do for now.
Other than call the government the c***s of the day.
Maybe make you feel a little better about yourself before heading to the football.
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https://www.change.org/p/save-british-council-educators-from-the-taliban
Worth taking a few minutes of your Saturday morning?
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14 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:
That won't happen, and this will gradually fade from the news.
Reprehensible conduct by us.
Unfortunately, I completely agree with you. It’s what should happen but won’t.
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46 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:
Update from on the ground in Kabul.
The still-missing woman I referred to in my first post has not been seen or heard from since my previous post (as of last night anyway). But was driven away in a truck with a group of other women, none of them have been heard from since. Their families assume 'married'.
Several other people I either know or have done work with have not been heard from in days. This could be very bad news, or could just mean they are hiding and off-grid. All work in educational settings where they have educated women/are women or in educational settings involving working with Americans, Australians, British etc.
A typical problem is former students grassing in their teachers and lecturers. This seems to be partly settling scores for things in some cases as trivial as grade disputes, and partly just trying to ingratiate themselves with the new authority. Of course, some of those grassing will just genuinely share the Taliban's worldview. As a result, plenty of people have scarpered and could have met trouble or could just be lying low somewhere.
I used to work for the British Council and still have quite a few friends who do. As of last night the position was that they were unable to get any of their Afghan staff out whatsoever. Just a blanket 'naw'. No passage for their Afghan teachers, security guards, admin staff. Nothing. All of these people will be at risk.
It's all very grim.
A tragic state of affairs.
Hopefully the people you haven't heard from are avoiding any possible incriminating communication and as you say ‘lying low’.
The reporting of teachers by students isn’t much of a surprise.
Considering it's likely there will be no more intervention, the UK should be doing everything to get everyone associated to them out without compromise.
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12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:
The Saudis and Kuwaitis paid more than half the cost, so they must have been pretty keen.
Well the Kuwatis for sure
. As said, I only have hazy memories of that time as I had other youthful priorities, just seem to remember a stumbling block of the US led coalition needing to campaign for more ‘local’ support to make it truly realistic and an initial hesitance from Saudi to allow the coalition to position troops there, the final decision being hugely unpopular.
I vaguely remember the news reporting the what if scenario that the coalition would need to undertake if they didn’t get troops onto Saudi soil or the backing of the other nations, which probably would have been a preferred option for some ‘politicians‘ and outsourcing contractors.
Trying to stretch my memory back did remind me of something else, which has been touched on by others on this thread.
Latterly, around the time of the Iraq (2) war I was involved around the defence industry.
The cost of the locally sourced fuel from Kuwait to the troops stationed in Iraq by the outsourced contractors was significantly more than the internal cost of transporting fuel by the US military, even to places like Alaska.
The profiteering and corruption was unbelievable.
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57 minutes ago, Fullerene said:
You mention the time when Iraq invaded Kuwait. It would have been nice if the countries of the Middle East sorted that out by themselves. After all, we must have sold them enough weapons to get the job done. Instead they asked the United States (and others) to get it sorted.
Similarly, Bosnia. Surely the Europeans should have sorted that out, yet the Americans were criticised for wanting to sit that one out. Yes, America interferes a lot in the affairs of other countries but it also gets blamed for not interfering.
It would be great if we left the Middle East alone. Unfortunately we have a serious addiction to oil and like all addictions it clouds our judgement. We despise the brutality of the Taliban but not the brutality of Saudi Arabia. Easy answer to that one.
I don’t recall, and could probably be wrong, that the Middle Eastern countries asked the US to sort the Kuwait invasion. If I recall the US had to do a fair bid of campaigning to get these states to support and participate. Regardless, your point still stands. There is a huge reluctance for the neighbouring countries to intervene in issues on their doorsteps for many differing reasons and that should be noted.
Same as the number of refugees the Middle Eastern countries took in during the Syrian war.
As for Saudi, it is not just oil and arms that the west cannot take any significant action and Saudi is a huge destabiliser.
It is a hugely complex mess, that we seem, sometimes through that oil fuelled, clouded judgement you mention, that we can resolve.
I think for all these conflicts in the region, this is probably quite apt:
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat
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6 hours ago, Ad Lib said:
At absolutely no point have I said that you can “go from A - Z immediately without milestones”.
My point was exactly Savage Henry’s: that the viability of soft power measures sometimes depends, as an unavoidable prerequisite, on the new or continued presence of external military forces.
Nothing he has said there contradicts what I have said.
If a Muslim man thinks that what is best for his 14 year old daughter is that he as her father gets to decide who and when she marries, that her husband is allowed to force her to have sex without his consent, that she is not allowed to be in a public place without her male chaperone on threat of being whipped, and that she is not allowed to go to school, then yes I know better than him what is good for Muslims.
As said, a deep understanding.
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40 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:
I agree with a lot of this. What you are basically taking issue with is the predated notion of nation building. Despite claims to the contrary, the Western governments have been unable to detach their use of military from those Victorian ideals. That being said, what you have described is precisely what the remnants of Western military in Iraq currently do, and should have been doing in Afghanistan. The US state department, rather than bombing the shite out of everything that moves, spends the majority of its budget on soft power - building schools, providing academic replacements for universities, and assisting IDP settlements, and so forth. In practical terms, that requires military presence. What Trump did was to remove the funding for those soft projects, redistributing it to the hard weaponry of the military. The cutbacks in overseas spending were achieved not by cutting back on military spending, but by taking away from what the State department should be doing. Then, when the military moves out, lining the pockets of the odious private security sector (to wit, Trump’s pals). The effect of this is what you are seeing now.
Yes, agree with that. Wholly this idea from Ad Lib that you can go from A - Z immediately without milestones, concessions and humility is absurd and his deep understanding of Islam that makes him know what is best for Muslims.
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25 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:
As soon as we withdrew troops, at any time in the last two decades, the Taliban would have simply done what they've done now, and retaken control of the country. Humanitarian operations would have been completely and utterly futile without a military presence to hold them back.
Except no. We shouldn't accept that a father gets to decide whether his daughter gets married, or to whom. Anywhere. Ever. It is never acceptable, regardless of cultural sensitivities, to whip and beat a woman for being outside without "her minder".
You aren't calling for us to be sensitive to the cultural concerns of those living in Afghanistan. You are calling for us to privilege the desires and power of a specific subset of abusive men, and saying that we should tolerate the subjugation of women to such an extent that it is almost worse than when the US Constitution treated non-free people as 3/5 of a person.
Sorry but this is just nonsense. While the West had a concerted military presence, the major provincial capitals, not just Kabul, were under Government control. We are right now seeing anti-Taliban protests in some of these capitals, which are being brutally suppressed and leading to deaths of civilians.
Saying that the lives of women and girls in Kabul somehow "count for little" just because other people's lives haven't really changed because they're living under the Taliban now and were living under the Taliban before simply doesn't stack up. The gains in Kabul were real, and could have been effectively permanent if we'd just kept our troops there.
Kabul wouldn't have been exposed (to anything like the extent that it was) if we hadn't withdrawn our troops.
This is rubbish. The Taliban did not gain support because little girls started going to school in Kabul.
1. Western values aren't Christian values and vice versa.
2. We aren't imposing Western values. We are imposing values that are entirely consistent with those of hundreds of millions of Muslims on the planet.
We're not trying to change ideals. We're using military power to stop specific people physically beating, raping and killing other people.
Anyone who "respects the opinion" of someone who says his daughter shouldn't be allowed to choose if and who to marry, that she should be publicly beaten with a whip if she goes outside unaccompanied by her male minder, that she should be banned on pain of beating from going to school, that if she refuses to have sex with her husband or a soldier that has just turned up at the door, and that she will be stoned to death if she shows her face or her hair in public, is unequivocally wrong and doesn't themselves deserve to have their opinion respected.
You have some reading comprehension issues.
You have some comprehension issues.
You have some issues.
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4 hours ago, Jinky67 said:
That’s probably a good thing as you would have only either gotten yourself or those around you killed. And now that I have swallowed the bait I may as well get this off my chest as it really is starting to boil my piss some of the utter nonsense being posted on here such as questioning a soldiers capacity to apply actions on combat or their ability to differentiate a Taliban soldier from a fucking farmer……seriously??
Those of us that did go out there particularly us there prior to Iraq went out there to help capture those who felt it was ok to bring down passenger planes full of innocent people by crashing them into buildings full of other innocent people and not just to go and shoot people.
Says a bit about you that you feel the attempt to capture those that done that is somehow less just than the act that served as the catalyst for it.
It just so happened as it so often does in every conflict is that no plan really survives first contact and as such our role there evolved when the size of the humanitarian problem and brutality the Afghan people were suffering became apparent but it’s easy to have an opinion on how justified it was to stay or how easy it was to disperse a highly motivated Taliban from their territories from 3500 miles away and all because you read a book once, saw something on Facebook or have watched your favourite Seal Team boxset.
As the saying goes “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
So when you see a women chase her child across the road and into the path of an IED effectively vaporising them both, have a mother who has been blinded by the Taliban carry her dead baby wailing because she couldn’t protect her, watch children cry over the body of their dead father lying in the street after being shot in the head as he was trying to stop the Taliban taking away their daughter or a woman after loosing her husband try cut a baby from her womb put their by one of the dozen Taliban soldiers who gang raped her it becomes very very very hard to do nothing. These are the things you don’t see or see reported but these are the things that change the direction of a conflict and the sort of things that were happening across the country and more frequently than you would think.
You can make valid points on how tactically mistakes were made and how opportunities were missed to block exits to Pakistan before deploying SF troops into Tora Bora or about the short sightedness of politicians when it came to governing the country once the Taliban had been removed but not that it wasn’t just
The irony also isn’t lost on me here that you have a Catholic schooled Celtic fan not only defending British actions in combat but actually played a part in actioning them. And like many of the people on this thread you are clearly better educated than me not that it would be that hard, I’m a scheme rat from Wishaw who joined the RM at 17 straight from school because I wasn’t very good academically or had any real prospects but what has become clear to even me is you actually know very very little about what was really happening.
The Afghans are like me and you people who deserve to live their lives without fear of being brutalised they just weren’t lucky enough to win the circle of life lottery and be born in a country where their lives matter and can exercise free will, they deserve better and they are deserving of our help. Again says a lot about you you think it isn’t just to try do that
Thankfully I don’t venture into this part of the forum often and I best also remove myself from it, so that’s certainly enough from me.
Your friendly war mongering ex-marine
Absolutely so much in a few paragraphs.
The humanitarian effort should always have been about the immediate needs of the victims not some Utopia.
Driving out the Taliban clearly had to be done, but then helping the locals get back to some form of normality that they want and they recognise and most of all they accept should have been the key. I have little doubt that most troops on the ground would have been trying to achieve that.
After that the troops should have left but humanitarian efforts continued. This would have made it much more difficult for the Taliban to return imo.
The Taliban play on fear by violence and a distorted view of Islam. We in some form removed the fear by violence, but we did not get the ‘reading of the room’ when it comes to faith (and the general expectations of the majority of the people) that has been a massive plus for the Taliban.
The aim should have been for recognised and acceptable normality as the starting point.
Our prolonged stay and our vision of what Afghanistan should look like was counter productive.
No matter what the west done we would always have been the outsider, with outsider ideas and a fact that the Taliban would manipulate with every misguided idea.
The borderlands for the Taliban was the countryside where most Afghans live. To be out there telling a most likely poorly or uneducated farmer that he is doing his life wrong and he must change is tantamount to being a modern day missionary.
Giving him the vote, as mentioned before, although good, is nothing, means nothing at this point.
I would hazard a guess that the average Afghan would not be setting his sites on his daughter going to university or having equality and the thought of that today would be questionable. The average Afghan would probably want his daughter to be safe and secure and married to a supportive husband within the local and religious values he holds dear and despite us not fully agreeing with that we should accept that at this point.
Going out there and helping him get his life into the order he wants, working with the imams and village elders to achieve this and biting our tongue when we have a conflicting view that could cause harm and/or offence, or guiding them to the right conclusion when it may be non confrontational to do so.
Grand dreams don’t happen over night and acceptable millstones should be in place especially when the progress change is so huge.
Cities and countryside everywhere is hugely different and more magnified in developing countries. All the developments in Kabul count for little if the majority of the population is outside it unless you built a wall. All that we created was a have and have nots and the Taliban could sail through the have nots without resistance, leaving Kabul exposed. The idea that the west knew Kabul would fall is an admission of their f**k ups, how quickly it fell shows how much they fucked up. To go back and repeat is stupidity and a huge amount of human suffering.
The more we pushed our ideas onto the population no matter how right we believe we are, the more we allowed the Taliban the ability to walk back in.
If the left of the scale is moderate Islam and right of the scale is Sharia Law, where does the western, Christian based value sit? Not on the scale at all. The west need to move the scale first, get it to the left first, then….. Otherwise the west will always be wrong at the ‘baseline’.
It takes multiple generations to change ideals.
I have huge respect for Jinky here, not that he was in the army, but the fact he recognises human suffering and the needs of individuals. Governments could have done better if they had listened to stories from first hand experience first and formed their policies to accommodate the needs of the poor.
Being humble and willing to learn from anyone, even an Afghan farmer, is something of huge value than considering your values are unequivocal.
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13 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:
I've already explained where I draw the line.
If you would force anyone into a marriage, you fall the side of the line where I say we don't tolerate your culture's values.
I freely accept that it may now not be viable to retake Kabul. But my point is we (NATO) should never have left in the first place.
If we (NATO) hadn't left, the Taliban would not now be in control of it. That is just a fact.
But most of them who wear burqas or hijabs under the Taliban do it because if they don't they will be physically beaten or even killed.
No one is saying no one should wear the burqa in Kabul. One of the things we were protecting was the choice not to wear it.
The objective is not to change their minds. It is to stop them doing certain things to other people.
We don't make rape illegal to "change rapists' minds". It isn't a lovebombing campaign of persuasion. We make rape illegal so that if someone does it, the victim can (we hope) report it, and the power of the state can then be used to apprehend, convict and punish the rapist. And we know a world in which rapists get caught and punished is one where less rape happens and where women feel more safe.
See above.
Your only protecting the values that you want to protect and demonise any you don’t.
Your whole solution is flawed, would never work and would have no benefit to the Afghans or any country sending occupying forces.
I am afraid we are a ling way away from having a global utopia.
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27 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:
I don't oppose polygamy where all the parties involved genuinely consent to it.
The vast majority of countries where Muslims are in the majority have legal bars on forced marriages.
I readily accept that the enforcement of this is much more mixed.
We should probably not let the Taliban take over Kabul and enforce it then, should we?
But when those beliefs deny the civic agency of more than half the population, they aren't legitimate beliefs, and aren't ones we should tolerate where we are in a position to deny them legal force.
Absolutely I do want to force some of my values on people. Not all of them. Just the bare minimum ones necessary to grant women and girls (and other oppressed groups) agency and physical safety.
Polygamy in Islam generally doesn't work like that, so you would be against it. It is only an example point though. As @Left Backasked where would you draw the line? For Islam I think you would disagree with many, many practices.
Enforcement, Yup
Not letting the Taliban take over. No matter how much people don't want this. At this point until there is legal precedence (which is probably not that far away to be honest), we shouldn't/can't do anything, or again we are forcing our 'values'. As soon as there is legal precedence and this time a plan, and with all due respect, not your plan, by all means back in to remove them.
It doesn't matter what you believe is a legitimate belief. It is what that person believes. Not all Muslim woman wear the Burka, Hijab or follow Islam because they are forced to. There are people in this world that are not Taliban but chose to live under Sharia Law. If you are going to change someone's mind by force, you have lost.
Progression takes time, a lot of time and effort.
I didn't touch on the LGBQ, good luck trying to change a mindset on that oppressed group in many parts of the world.
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3 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:
Yes, I am an advocate of enforcing the belief that women should not be forcibly married, raped, killed, and denied basic civic agency on those who do not believe it.
These things are not "Western" values. These are values shared by vast swathes of the Muslim world and beyond.
Can you define ‘vast swathes of the Muslim world’? More than a quarter of the world recognise polygamy as a legal right.
Nothing to discuss on Sharia Law, it is abhorrent and most Afghans wouldn’t want it. Most would want to live there life by their values and beliefs.
Again, you want to force your values on people.
Enough for me now.
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1 minute ago, Ad Lib said:
I don't care if the local people think a father should get to decide that his daughter is to marry someone. That is barbaric, illegitimate, and to be resisted. It is not acceptable no matter how much "cultural context" you apply to it.
My point is you don't need to change "this way of thinking" to stop, or significantly reduce the instances of, forced marriage. It is a moral good to prevent as many of them as possible from happening even if 99.99% of Afghans fervently believe they should be allowed.
Therefore you are forcing your belief (whether right or wrong) on people and you expect to succeed (with a military force to back you)?
Sorry, but you are completely deluded in your thinking.
You were advocating before to @Left Back about not imposing western democracy, but you want to cherry pick the rights and beliefs you deem acceptable by a western standard.
You are as well have an invasion force and send in the missionaries to knock sense into these backwards people?
What you want is certainly worthy, but they are many milestones to achieve along the way.
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5 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:
No it doesn't put it in the "vague" zone.
Forced marriages are ones where the woman does not consent. If a male guardian purports to give consent on behalf of a woman or girl, or applies pressure on her to communicate consent to a marriage, it is a forced marriage.
This addresses your subsequent points.
As for your question about separation of men and women in terms of public facing roles in society, I also consider that to be unacceptable.
It is clearly less severely objectionable than forced marriage and rape, but it is still barbaric.
Thats fair, but then you are not putting a foreign military force in place for the benefit of the local people. Your putting it in place to enforce your own beliefs on a population that doesn’t generally care for these beliefs at this point.
I do not say your intentions are not good and true; women should equal, but you cannot easily change this way of thinking/life.
If it were that simple, the Taliban would not have been able to breeze back in.
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Afghanistan Crisis
in The General Nonsense Forum
Posted
The whole defence procurement is a maze and over pricing common place. Offsetting helps feed the gravy train and is an amazing/shocking initiative.