Bazil85

I don’t understand how it’s irrelevant? Bigger leagues will always have middle teams with little to play for. I’m simply pointing out it works in other leagues including the biggest and most financially successful. Even looking at smaller leagues. Scotland is currently 27th rated by coefficient in Europe. Of the 26 leagues above us over 20 have bigger leagues than 12 teams. There is an argument that these leagues are more successful based on coefficient. You can flatly reject any comment that’s against your views or you can have an actual debate. I for one fully see there are benefits to keeping a 12 team league but I feel there’s benefits in increasing the numbers.

Possibly yeah, that’s part of it. No competition in the league either. To say it proves absolutely nothing is possibly a bit narrow sighted though? You genuinely don’t think there’s any impact from number of repeat fixtures? Was it last season or season before they played each other three times in five weeks? if you genuinely think it’s having no impact then that’s fine, that’s your view. There’s several news outlets saying it’s likely a factor and I imagine both clubs have considered it as a factor.

I must of missed it, what was it?

The middle teams in the three most expensive league in the world would also probably challenge this point.

Please see my above response. What can’t speak can’t lie and stats about people tuning in to those games are plain to see. Even the game I’ve quoted is a drop in the previous game one month prior. Six Rangers Celtic games last season. Boring

Of course. The Rangers Celtic game in October 2017 was the lowest viewed game between those two clubs or Celtic and the old club in the sky era. Roughly 275k watched it. That’s 26k fewer than watched Villa Vs Forrest the same day and 145k less than watched Sheffield derby the next day. Now there may be a slight correlation with TV times but getting considerably less than Villa Vs Forrest is pretty tangible evidence that the interest in that fixture has dropped. Link below. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj_uOv4p5bZAhUIIcAKHTxrBXwQqQIICSgBMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sundaypost.com%2Ffp%2Falan-brazil-rangers-and-celtic-viewing-figures-show-the-old-firm-tv-bubble-is-well-and-truly-burst%2F&usg=AOvVaw1p7zV0pgFt3hgayMa-sq-2

Any fans of the other clubs that said they’d consult fans shine light on if that’s been done yet?

And that to me would be the most productive way to do the vote. Live on TV, over here if you’re a good guy over there in the sea if you’re a w**k. Haha

Well done Stenny 100% clarifying themselves as good guys tonight. Stated before but if all the good guys/ likely good guys vote as expected deal is completely dead. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42977922 Confirmed good guys Stirling Albion Albion Rovers Annan Stenhousemuir Cowdenbeath Very likely good guys Dunfermline Athletic Clyde Arbroath Queens Park Airdrieonians Most likely bad guys Berwick Rangers

I'd be delighted with this. Think it makes a lot of sense. There's a few different 16/ 18 team models that could work as well. Problem is OF will not allow any change that takes away four meetings. That will be their downfall though on global scale. Boring and repetitive fixture is driving away fan interest (money)

Yeah so with it likely being that the pilot scheme isn't even going to pass what does that tell us? need to remember how much the Rangers and Celtic coaches had their heads buried in the sand with this proposal saying it would generate positive fan interest, crowds and commercial revenue. That just shows they had completed little to no research on the topic before presenting to League 2 sides. Now McCart has came out and said it's all but dead for now. If someone as out of touch, disrespectful to fans and down right stupid as Chris McCart is saying the pilot will likely not get off the ground, I think it's fair to say it won't.

I think that's part of the problem in football and why wages are ridiculous in EPL and Europe. Massive squads. Teams like Chelsea swallow up so much talent, maintain several older youth teams and loan out squads of players. Gives them a massive advantage (but doesn't seem to be very fruitful with results) I would have it limited across the board. Max senior squad 25 players. Max youth squads and max players that can be loaned out. Force these other players into other set-ups where they'll be playing more competitive matches.

Or even better sent the senior clubs there for us never to have to deeal with them again. I'd support any proposal to get these poison clubs out our game.

i think almost all evidence suggests it won't. Risk and reward. The format in its currently in offers very little reward for considerable risk even for L2 clubs for a few reasons. By the lowest speculation it still needs 75% approval, Many clubs have came out publicly against, this will likely put clubs considering it off. The vote will likely be made public and they won't want to be the guys that voted yes to a knocked back unpopular proposal There is no real benefit to L1, Championship and lower SP clubs. Their fans are euqally against so why would they vote yes? There is massive sporting integirty issues at play here plus the risk of losing promising customers to Rangers and Celtic, for no financial benefit (even for the small bribe) why would clubs vote for it? You say you think it'll be close but Rangers and Celtic have already more or less admitted defeat, as they should do. Far too much tail wagging the dog in Scottish football.

Yes, of course it does. the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative. There is no question the majority of fans don't want this. It would defy logic to do anything but bin it. Surely you can see that?

It reads like it was a discussed and the working group (comprising of members) gave approval to go out to all member clubs to consider their position. The 'clubs invited to respond with their views' part clearly tells everyone no club has categorically said yes to Colt teams. Given this was last summer and there was no follow up from clubs or SPFL I think that suggests there was no appetite at all. Likely because of fan backlash.

That's the thing. In no way, shape, or form is that the bottom line. This is tied to Project Brave and the SFA have consistently said they want to improve youth development to the point where Scotland get back to major tournaments. If you want to go down that as a 'bottom line' then you have to ask the question 'Will 19, 20 & 21 year old's playing in Scotland's fourth division create players good enough to one day take the national team to a World Cup?' The evidence all suggests absolutely not. We actually have tangible evidence of this in Rangers first team playing in League 2 six years ago. Not one of the young players from that squad (Even surrounded by more experienced players and working up through the divisions playing even better players) has turned into a World Cup quality player. Not one single player. So I'd say the evidence is against it. It isn't a bottom line kind of question for anyone though. There's way more that needs considered such as the below. I've noted where we do have evidence for the negative: Will such a proposal impact relationships between L2 (and others) clubs and fans to the point where it'll turn real fans away from the game (Very likely yes) Will such a proposal benefit Celtic and Rangers above all other clubs (Yes) Does it present an issue for supporting integrity by putting the clubs in the middle of the pyramid and offering money to clubs to go against fans wishes (Yes) Will it cost other teams promising young players as the Colts strengthen their squads following Challenge Cup failings (Very likely yes) Will it cost teams loan players (very likely yes) This is all tangible or very close to tangible evidence that makes the Colt idea a very very very bad one.

I would be responding to people like that saying 'It seems strange that other clubs can clarify their position given how emotive this subject is to fans. can you please advise why East Fife are willing to keep their fan base in the dark over such a subject?' In saying that, I haven't had a word back from St Mirren.

What's the difference between calling them a Colt team and calling them a B team given we have no examples of either in the professional league structure (L2-SP) and how they might interact with professional clubs? There is no information on what difference would look like but more importantly there is zero evidence that fan appetite for them is different which you implied in an earlier post.

Who has said that? They are the exact same thing.

You have just signed Darren Barr I suppose! Legend

At the expense of turning your bottom to divisions into development leagues, alienating a good number of fans at these clubs and even turning some away from football. Not a good enough reason for me or others with not enough evidence that it'll make a real difference. I'm very much of the mind if you're good enough and have the right attitude/ desire, you'll make it as a footballer. No need for Rangers and Celtic Colts for this. In fact there is just as much evidence it would hinder development by throwing them in too early or damaging morale with weekly pumpings if it goes the way of the Challenge cup.

I know it's idealism but not in the way you've stated. It's idealistic in the way that Rangers and Celtic are going nowhere and the chiefs in Scottish football would fight tooth and nail to keep them. (All about money) I do reject the quality side of this debate. Scottish Premier is not a place for quality football currently. It's not even close. The quality at the top flight might go down slightly but I don't think it would be noticeable. St Mirren for an example are playing some amazing stuff right now. Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and a good few others even without Rangers and Celtic will still command bigger budgets that we have now so arguably there's no reason quality can't be maintained. Plus a lot of team park the bus against Rangers and Celtic, would hope aspects of that would change. As for the Excitement of the games, it's getting stale and boring already and Rangers have only been in the league two seasons. What was it six games they played last season? I also can't name a single fan of the other 40 clubs that gets their season ticket or attends their club matches because of four games (or the chance of one) against either of those teams. Again when St Mirren were in top flight or two season ago with Rangers, I got mine despite them. I'd also come back with, do you think there would be more excitement with teams like ICT, St Johnstone, Motherwell, etc fans if in recent years instead of finishing third or second they were pushing for the league title? Finally, with my Wales and N Ireland point. There is no reason any professional club would have to go out of business. Teams are maintained with much less budget than any team in the structure. I'm also sure you'd agree not many go see a Clye, Forfar or Stirling Albion for the football quality.

What I'd say is that clubs would adapt. Wales and Northern Ireland maintain professional leagues (granted with part-time clubs) Wales as an example has 44 teams over two tiers. I personally don't care about the money, if players are good enough and apply themselves enough they will forge a career in football with or without Rangers and Celtic. Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, the Dundees plus a number of other teams would likely see attendance surges over the years when competition returns and ticket prices reflect the sport. That's what football is all about for me. I'd happily have every game on at 3pm on a Saturday with no TV money and clubs having to adjust to the financial picture. I also picture other benefits: Less money will result in the need for the other bigger teams to play more Scottish youngsters Those teams will still likely maintain good training and coaching systems to better support these players Competition in itself will spark more interest with neutrals, a lot of people outside Scotland have lost all interest in our one horse race/ coin toss league That's reflected in current TV deals which will only likely get poorer given the competition from other leagues. Jump before we're pushed sort of thing Playing in EPL/ Atlantic league format will allow Rangers and Celtic to better reach their financial potential. Majority of youth players coming through will still be Scottish which would benefit international team Reverse the glory hunting trends potentially at a low level with maybe some fans adopting a Scottish team to support over Rangers and Celtic Shouldn't have an impact on good players, if you're good enough and put in the effort to improve then big clubs will be interested. I guess to summarize, the only concern I really see is a financial one. Unfortunately modern football is a corporate monster and that's all that's important for big leagues and big teams. In Scotland we're not a big league we just happen to have two teams with big club potential. I'd take competition and sporting integrity over money everyday of the week.

It's nice to see this page calm down a wee bit. Lots of fan pressure seems to have put Rangers and Celtic in their place in regards to the ridiculous Colt plan. Far too much of the tail wagging the dog in Scottish football with pandering to the Bigot Brothers. Hopefully they've taken the hint though and that's the deal dead forever more. Now how do we get the ugly sisters completely out of Scotland? lol