Howlin' Wilf

They were known as Bruce's stables but in fact were much later constructions. Urban myth I'm afraid.

But the club wouldn't be in the tourism industry. In what way did you think they would?

Well no they won't of course. Because Ingliston is a five star facility and I'll bet they'll cater for very few if any wedding parties from Dumbarton. Simply the distance alone means that any development here won't be a rival - particularly not a three star standard of venue. But there's the thing, how well would Ingliston do in Dumbarton? Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but didn't you pooh-pooh the idea of a country club in Dumbarton a few posts back? You can't have it all ways. I wonder if you have visited the Lake District ? About a mile off the M6 en route to the Lake District, in a very ordinary location is the Rheged Centre http://www.rheged.com/ which does conferences and events, weddings, it has a kids' soft play, a cinema, restaurants, some shops and a filling station. Oh aye and there's the historical aspect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheged but I'm sure Rheged is much more of a recognised name than that of Robert the Bruce. As I have said before, there are many questions to be asked here and until the funding aspects become clearer, it's hard for anyone to make a decision on whether this would be a good thing for the club or not. I think there is plenty of potential and merit in aspects of the plan though and if the location of the club is to be adjacent to retail and tourism, on the periphery of a national park with good transport links, that could be preferable to being stuck in the middle a residential area in a cul de sac. But it might not. I don't know. I'm just considering the possibilities of the info we have and acknowledging that there may be some, rather than the kind of self doubt and loathing which was recently such a feature of the 'No' campaign.

Ahead of his time perhaps. http://www.ingliston.com/

And verily it came to pass that the Knight of the White Hose proposed to swap his lands (11 acres suitable for thatched dwelling houses) for 120 acres of land designated for industry and commerce (although neither have been invented yet) On the condition they bury his heart in the Holy Land where the flag of Palestine flies (Dumbarton Municipal Chambers)

By the way, can it be true that the grand White Knight of the Hose whose family connection with the Sons goes back hunners o' years has the majority shareholding in Brabco (insert number here)? I hear he's a right stroppy bugger mind thee......

Titter ye not. My uncle used to farm at the Mains of Cardross farm which is on the Kipperoch Rd Just above the proposed site. Dalmoak/Renton were in the Parish of Cardross. Archaeologists have found many artefacts there linking Bruce with the locality and they were never away from the farm . Bruce spent the last years of his life and died in the parish of Cardross. The location of Bruce's grand palace has been speculated upon "The buildings on the Pillanflatt, which means "pavilion of the great hero" and is said to stretch from Dalquhurn to Dalreoch, are believed to include the king's manor house, which had a 100ft grand hall, a queen's quarter and a chapel." http://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/feb/22/robert-the-bruce-palace-remains. Bruce's organs, in some accounts, were buried on the site which is now Levengrove Park. Coincidentally, I was at the funeral of Charlie Anderson today at Dalnottar. Charlie was past president of the Dumbarton Burns Club and fostered links with the Artizan Group who promote Bruce and his history in the area. I've been at a couple of talks by these guys and they may be a bit quirky but boy are they passionate and know their stuff. Several of them were at the funeral and they tell me that it is they who will occupy the tourist aspect should the project go ahead. F*ck all to do with football I know, but the site is probably as historically significant as Bannockburn. You're all perfectly entitled to dismiss all this shit, but it does help to know what the shit is before said dismissal. http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2013-cardross-manor/ http://www.robertthebruceheritagecentre.co.uk/downloads/Pailleanflath.pdf http://www.west-dunbarton.gov.uk/leisure-parks-events/tourism-and-visitor-attractions/museums-and-galleries/collections/people-and-personalities/people-and-personalities-dumbarton/individuals-dumbarton/robert-the-bruce/ Sons fan and good egg Tommy Crocket is involved with the Artizans

Fag packet. I've heard figures mentioned around 800k.

What do you think we should do Auld Son?

Good question and one that has to be asked.

Jordo, it's a pity that you didn't make it down. I'd make the following observations on your post. You're right of course that the circumstances are different from when we moved from Boghead. I am struck, having read the sonsteam board messages from that time though how similar many of the concerns are. What is also evident from the comparison is how far the club has come in that period of time. I agree on your opinion on the location, it isn't attractive. However nothing will be built on a flood plain as SEPA (Scottish Environmental Protection Agency) would not allow it. Two of the three training pitches will be built on areas that Sepa say are liable to flooding once in 200 years. I was assured by Gilbert Lawrie that phase 1 would be completed before we left the Rock. I refer you to the third of my images posted on page 224. On the question of how many properties can be squeezed in, the answer is 180 houses, a selection of town houses, detached houses, semi detached and flats (See my photo number 5) I share your concerns of the phased nature and the apparent lack of financial information. The finances are apparently to be unveiled if (when) planning permission is granted. I'm only quoting what was told to me. It's obviously up to each individual how they regard that information. This is a bit like the Scottish Referendum in a way. We are being asked to take a punt on something where it is impossible for a number of factors to predict the future. The other thing which is similar to the referendum is that the status quo is not an option. We have a majority shareholder who wants this project to go ahead and to realise a profit on their investment. If it doesn't go ahead, how Brabco then behave then will be the key factor. Will they sell on? and to whom? One similarity with the Boghead days is that the land the club occupies is more valuable as a cleared site than it is as the home of a football club. I'd suggest that someone at some time is going to realise that heritable asset and maybe it is as well to do that when an alternative location is part of the plan. To stay at the Rock I think would require a community/supporter buy out. These are only generally successful as a distress purchase (eg when the club is in admin) for two reasons 1) Fans are motivated when the chips are down and 2) Clubs become available cheaply. I don't see either being the case here. Our 600 season ticket holders would need to chip in around £2k each to buy the club and that would be just for the shares. No working capital or anything.

I have just been reading some of the comments on the sonsteam list archives from 1999 and it is amazing the parallels that there are with today's situation. Justified concerns about the move, and who profits from it, whether the project will be completed, a significant number wanting to stay at Boghead. One contributor, concerned at funding shortfalls wrote on July 30th 1999: "Just caught up on the latest "news" which was always a concern. Starting the stadium now, without the funding in place, seems unlikely in the short term, however, pulling this off by building a stadium and clearing the overdraft is the only way Neil (Rankine) will be able to sell out for the price he wants. Noone will invest under the current circumstances and even Billy Walker's offer seems over generous now and as you know this was so far short of what Neil wanted that it started the arguements that led to our departure. The remaining doubt is what will now be built ? and I share your views on the merits of doing it at all, what facilities will be available to the President's Club or more importantly sponsors who will be the main stay of any business plan for the future. No news on Stirling, my contact is on holiday but this type of option looks more and more likely as no matter what Andrew says Bellway can't wait for ever." The reference to Stirling was about a ground sharing proposal at Forthbank. Anyway, the contributor was one Gilbert Lawrie.

Dumbarton FC owns the land and the majority shareholders in Dumbarton FC is Brabco

No argument from me to any of that.

I made this very point to the officials at the meeting. I was told that only one wedding party to their knowledge had ever availed themselves of the opportunity of having their photos taken at the Castle Green. I find that quite baffling if true. I was thinking back to the last four weddings I have attended. Only one of them was in May-August. That was OK3's and Sons had a home game that day...... I am neither for nor against the proposed stadium move - all I'm trying to do is apply a bit of context.

On your first point OK, the landscape has changed considerably since Dumbarton FC could run on crowds of 3000-4000, a lottery* and selling a player every couple of years. Additional income streams might keep us at a higher footballing level than 550 paying in to see Alloa on a cold Tuesday. On point two, how would an extension be funded? The new stadium and facilities are contingent on funds from the land sale. Still on point two, if Brabco's 'pound of flesh' is to be after the fact of the land sale what's the problem? On point three the training pitches would provide training facilities for the team to train in Dumbarton, saving on current costs. I have no idea how much Stenhousemuir make from their facilities but I thought they made a profit. You have said yourself OK that this is going to happen. That being the case, the crucial aspects are that the club receives a fair market value for the land and that the funds are ring-fenced for the new stadium. They should have an AGM and follow procedure and we should be vigilant. * I understood that Sonstrust were to set up and operate a lottery on the lines of Stirling Albion or Clyde. What has happened in that respect?

Everyone should be sceptical. Many clubs have perished on the 'Rock' of promises of new stadia. I don't think there is a proposal to go into debt before a deal is done. I think the borrowing would be to cover the period between the signing of a deal and the clearing of the site and to facilitate 'Phase 1'. However that is precisely why I would wish to see safeguards.

In response to my enquiry on whether Denny's Homes would build on the site themselves, the reply from Gilbert was that they would probably build on half of the site with another builder doing the other half.

There is one salient fact as I see it and that is the club occupies a prime housing site. When the land occupied by a football club becomes more valuable in monetary terms than the club itself, then that is not a good thing for the long term security of that club. Currently the club has an opportunity to relocate to another much bigger site with a very low cost of land purchase. That site affords the opportunity of incorporating facilities from which the club will receive an income. Phase 1 from what Gilbert said will cost around £4 million and would be financed from the sale of the current site. He said that were the appropriate sum not to be raised from the sale of the current site, then the project wouldn't go ahead. So where do Denny's Homes come in? Well they would develop and build on half the current site. That is where the return on their 'investment' comes from. The reason Phase 1 has two training pitches instead of building a second stand at this stage is that the pitches would save and generate money via the team using them for training purposes and their hiring out. And in any case the capacity would be adequate. The first stand would be a two tier building with bars on the first floor and function suites on the ground floor. People book weddings sometimes years in advance. Currently the club doesn't know whether they can take weddings until the football fixture lists come out in June. With a separate function facility this would allow them to take advance bookings. The club is the only function/conference facility in town with a capacity of more than 200 Subsequent phases of development are reliant on securing the income via the other proposed developments on the site. I was assured that Phase one would be completed before the clearing of the old site, thus no ground sharing. It isn't the best site I can think of but it is the only alternative one I can think of. However..... I find it quite strange that the club has not had an AGM in about three years. I would have thought that these plans would have been discussed with shareholders first. Have the holders of the 100 C shares been notified? I think not. I would like to think that some way of ring fencing the proceeds of the sale of the current site would be found. I think WDC may already be on the case here. I wonder if there would be quite the demand for the other facilties (hotel/pub/gym etc) to finance the other phases. So....yes the salient fact is that the club is sitting on a valuable site. At some stage either the current or subsequent owners will realise that asset. It may be better for that to happen with concrete (sic) plans in place for an alternative site. Or it may not. I simply don't know. I'm trying though to look at the big picture here. One thing is sure. If the Robert the Bruce Stadium doesn't go ahead. Others may try, try and try again to get the club out of the current site.

This is the crux.

I took my camera down. Apparently these will appear on the OS next week.