oldbitterandgrumpy

What it 'proves', if it proves anything at all, is that some people can not be trusted with the responsibility of a vote.

Scotland bottled it - had our chance. In 2014 countries around the world must have been laughing from the sidelines at Scotland. For better or worse we could have gone our own way. There was no messy, inconvenient civil war to get through, all that was required was a simple, un-coerced vote. Better together though eh? f**k it, it's still too soon to talk about it. Laughing from the sidelines would definitely be my preferred option though, because, let's face it, watching headless chickens going round in circles is hilarious.

Killer Joe. Matthew McConaughey as a very disturbing cop (in his spare time he's an assassin, for a fee). Bizarre Redneck stuff. Bleak, but entertaining.

Exactly. It always comes back to this.

And MP's from other parties don't?

If it was on Off The Ball I'm pretty sure to have missed it. Cowan makes it very difficult to listen to.

Only catch it every few weeks but caught that one. It was better than usual. Still full of Cowan shouting over everyone though . . . 'BUUUUT'! . . .

At Palmerston the applause is specifically aimed at the away support. They wait until the away figure is announced, then turn towards them and applaud. Happens every game, at least in the East Stand where I sit. Very respectful in my opinion. Can't see it catching on though.

Fair enough, just wondered. It's a nice touch.

Nothing to do with the football but been meaning to ask this for a long time. When they announce the official attendance at Palmerston they include the number of away fans. When the away figure is announced, the crowd turn towards the Terregles end of the East Stand and give them a round of applause. Is this just a Palmerston thing? Or maybe just an East Stand thing? Don't remember it happening at any other grounds.

But please don't draw me into this debate further than you need to. I know I'm the leader of the opposition but I'd rather just watch for now. Cheers.

That was the Scottish electorate attitude in 2014. And Middle England's in 2016. In fact it's pretty much anyone's attitude to anything these days. Can't see further ahead than tomorrow.

The current shambles created by the Tories should be an absolute gift to Labour, so yes, not out of the question at all. But with Corbyn as party leader? I thought he fought a good campaign last time and Labour did better than was expected of them. Admittedly May was a pretty lame opponent, but he still gained significant popular support. But his popularity has been on the slide since then, mainly due to his indecision or wrong decisions. He just doesn't seem to show leadership. It's a possibility that a general election might not be too far away. What are the chances of Labour getting their act together in time to present some credible alternatives to these marginal voters? Because I just can't see Middle England being comfortable with him in charge, backed up by McDonnell and Abbot.

It's quite a leap to assume Middle England will elect Corbyn if or when the government implodes. Brown, or even Milliband had a sporting chance. Corbyn? Voted in by Daily Mail readers? When even they admit the Tories are incompetent? I think that's going too far. His popularity with the electorate is waning. Brexit was always going to be a challenge for him personally, and he just hasn't stepped up.

Aye, suppose so. Didn't say he wasn't a politician, with all the hypocritical baggage a politician has to carry around with them. His ineptness and inability to step up when needed does make me despair though.

It would seem the areas with the heaviest Leave vote are going to be the hardest hit. I don't get that either. Find it hilarious though.

He's old school Socialist. He likes to think he has principles, which to be fair he has when compared to the Blairite Labour MP's who had a meltdown and tried to get rid of him when the party elected him leader. But a dinosaur with principles is still a dinosaur. He's coming across as hopelessly inept. I quite like him, comes across as quite a decent guy. He seems completely out of his depth at this level though.

Yeah, they're 'taking back control' When you're in a hole . . . stop digging . . . or when you're the strong and stable responsible government, just wing it.

And an awful lot of them pine for the 1950's

The bold bit above. They don't. Newspapers (and sadly they are still relevant) are struggling to stay in business. They play to the crowd, preach to the converted . . . it's what any established newspaper does. They know their market and they go for it. The middle market ones really go for it. They're shooting fish in a barrel. They print some xenophobic shit about Poles or Pakistanis getting benefits and their readers lap it up. And, I'll agree, it is much stabler to build demand for your product, but it's newspapers we're talking about. They don't actually have a product, unless they react to their readers.

Well . . . aye and no . . . Do papers cultivate their audience? I don't think so. They want to sell papers, so they print stuff their readers want to read. They don't have to capture the gammon market, because that's basically their business model, preach to the converted. The Daily Mail has recently taken a softer tone on Brexit. The reader's response? Whinge, Moan. Shout . . . whatever . . . their minds are not for changing.

I don't think the gammon types are that open minded. Even if they were, things would just trundle on . . .

Hat's off to you for at least trying to engage him in a debate.

Another case rested. FPTP is flawed. But whatever Government that happens to be in power is welded by the balls to FPTP. It's not going to change any time soon. I'd love to be proved wrong, but change in Westminster has to come from within. Dream on.

Case rested.