Che Dail

It's more like £10k just now for licensed clubs, plus the Scottish Cup prize money. Don't think Glenafton took many to Almondvale at the weekend - think it was almost a record low attendance for Livi. In the East Premier yesterday 1st v 2nd and only 100 there according to the match reporter - poor show. Musselburgh one of the best supported clubs in the league too.

"Bo'ness confirm they want to quit Juniors": http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/bo-ness-united-confirm-they-want-to-quit-juniors-1-4414815 There are more.

Newtongrange v Kennoway in the SL yesterday. Great result for the star, but it looks like there are more people in the dugouts than in the rest of the ground. Probably more at Kelty v Tweedmouth to be fair.

It's a full moon tonight...

Yes of course, its a lot of work to focus on and get through - but again it's all things you'd want a club to have.

You can download the Club Licensing Manual here: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570 And scroll to Section 2, page 24 Ground Criteria (Entry Level). The requirements are mostly basic facilities and features you'd want a club to have anyway.

Yes, but looking at the numbers, there would need to be a massive influx of clubs for it to make much of a difference. There are currently 88 licensed clubs, each receiving a share of the SFA profit as members. Assume it is £10k a year each just now. So if another 88 clubs obtained a licence, that would reduce the payment to £5k each. Let's say for arguments sake that 12 more clubs obtain a licence next year - still £8,800 at Christmas. Go and ask Charlie what he thinks about that! On the point about clubs having to take out a mortgage themselves - well why not? Figures being banded about that £100k is needed to get some clubs up to standard. Over 20 years, that's about £500 a month. The SFA Payment covers that, and you have a ground which is fit for purpose. There's a business plan there to show that the debt is serviceable - especially if you go on a run in the Scottish...

You don't need a licence to join the EoS set up, but all clubs have the potential to work towards it, and the incentives to do so are plain for everybody to see. For a club like Easthouses, what the previous poster is saying is that they now pretty much meet the licencing criteria other than the need for a small extension to their covered enclosure provision, and they'd also need to screen the perimeter fence which by comparison to the other requirements is not a significant outlay. What they and other Midlothian clubs are potentially about to face is a gaping hole in their budgets if the Local Authority cuts its Grant awards and support to even the most basic services such as grass cutting, which is a very real possibility due to a massive well publicised shortfall in their own resources. That gap is not going to be filled by gate receipts, other than in brilliant moments such as agreeing to take a Friday night cup game under the lights if a local derby presents itself again. Still, with half the gate going to Bonnyrigg that night it's probably not life-changing amounts of money we're talking about. As a simple exercise take a look at the current Super League and remove your 3 or 4 favourite clubs and figure out how it looks with your club alongside the ones that are left. There is a risk facing every club that the SL and Premier will not look anything like the way it does now next season or in the next 3-5 years. Scottish Cup entry to Junior clubs is a massive carrot that might not be dangling for much longer if more clubs like Kelty make the transition to the pyramid, as is expected.

Fair enough - although you did refer to progress 'within the current structure' which is relatively recent (Super / Premier / South - North) My point is that, over the piece, I reckon Musselburgh would be better off if they switched to EoS and playing local football alongside Bonnyrigg / Penicuik / Newtongrange / Tranent / Haddington / Dunbar / Dalkeith / Arniston / Easthouses. The Junior cup run clearly wasn't a lasting financial success, otherwise they wouldn't find themselves in the East Premier now. With a club license, I'd expect Musselburgh would be capable of reaching Scottish Cup R2 and R3 fairly regularly. They're stifled in the current set-up.

Going from Junior Cup finalists to barely winning a home league game last season isn't great progress. Tranent v Easthouses in the Scottish Junior Cup last weekend - lucky if there were 60-70 paying supporters at that judging by the photos online, and if the visitors left the ground with more than £90 share of the gate after costs I'd be surprised. Tranent are traditionally a well supported club, brought back to life in recent years by good folk and smart investment in the ground and playing squad. Their Community Club achieved SFA 'Legacy' status in recent years and it does great work locally, all run by volunteers. Yet despite the incredible success the Juniors had last season winning 2 cups they still struggle to get folk out to watch the team like everyone else. Something's not right...

Burnie_man nobody even heard of Blackburn before SuBo! Seriously though, it would make very little difference if you swapped Kirriemuir and Forfar with Duns and Leith Athletic. Having a Club Licence and Scottish Cup entry would be massive though, and a return to local football at this level would help most clubs. If you have kids playing against the same teams that the adult 1st team is facing week after week it might generate more interest.

Where do you draw the line though...? To use your principle, what if there were only amateur Community Clubs in West Lothian and everybody from the small towns supported Livingston FC as the professional club in the region - Sell the land for social housing and use the cash to install 3G pitches at the local High School for everyone to use. The benefit of losing all those 'semi-pro' teams would see better quality and support at the top level which is where it really matters... I wonder if Rangers and Celtic really feel the need for Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness, Bathgate, Whitburn etc. ...That was your idea...

Even more alluring!

LTHV 2017/18 Scottish Cup Prize Money: Prelim 2 v Kelty = £2k Prelim 2 v Coldstream = £2k R1 v Inverurie = £2k R2 v Stirling Albion = £4k R3 v St Mirren = £6k Gate receipts share v St Mirren = £4k? Plus Annual SFA Club Member payment (if successful with Licence application) = £5k TOTAL = £25k 5 games of football and that’s not including TV money (if applicable) and retail takings on the day. If they get through the St Mirren tie to R4 the prize money is a further £9k and into the pot with Hearts / Hibs / Rangers / Celtic etc. To put this into perspective, the reward for winning the East Region Super League is £1750. Not very good is it? http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/revealed-scottish-cup-winners-pick-10164143

Wouldn't you like to see pro clubs playing competitive fixtures at Olivebank? 1200+ St Mirren fans expected at Saughton Enclosure this month...

Can you point to the investors and money-driven owners of the Lowland League clubs which sets them apart from the way Junior clubs are managed and run and operated? They're more or less exactly the same, other than Club Licensing. Spartans are embedded in their community. Gala Fairydean Rovers is run exclusively by volunteers. I doubt there will be a dividend for Whitehill shareholders this year, if there are any. The Junior game is 11 a-side adult football. Semi-professional or Semi-amateur whichever way you look at it, just like Lowland League / EoS. And the Junior game has had its fair share of 'investors' throwing stupid amounts of cash at football players over the years. How the retention clause thing ever could have been thought of as good for the game of football we'll never know - it's a farce that clubs have been punished for breaches of this rule and a disgrace that it took until this season to remove it. It's this mystical aura around 'the Juniors' that most folk sitting outside it cannot get their head around - it's local football for goodness sake. If clubs want change they just need to step up to the plate and make it happen.

I know what you mean but I'm not sure that any of the clubs shown in the 1st other than maybe Penicuik would be any worse off than at the present moment... In a league alongside Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow & Bo'ness, lower positioned SL clubs such as Newtongrange (and Musselburgh?) are not likely to get promoted to the LL ahead of those clubs (or LTHV and maybe Tynecastle) in season 1 anyway based on the past couple of seasons' form. There's only space for one or two promotion places so most clubs need to plan for 2,3,4,5 years ahead. For all of the Premier and South clubs listed, I'd have thought that it's a more attractive league than they're currently in - particularly in terms of travel time and costs, local fixtures etc. So to a club like Musselburgh (and Haddington?) right now who look as though they'll be promoted next season - would they rather be in a SL potentially without Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Linlithgow and Bo'ness or in a EoS 1st Div with local rivals and the potential for genuine club development and progression...? Would they really be looking forward to trips to Forfar / Carnoustie / Jeanfield / Lochee / Broughty / Kennoway and for those clubs visiting in relatively low numbers? What's the long-term objective for staying? You might be right that only one or two Junior clubs will go next season - but if that's the case, the others will be further down the order when the inevitable change does happen. Better to do it now in numbers.

Just to clarify - there is no limit on the number of clubs that can join the EoS League - they're not going to close the door after 3 applicants as soon as the league is made up to 16. It will happen eventually, but realistically not all Junior clubs are going to shift across at the same time, which is why I was suggesting previously that it only needs 9 or 10 (ideally 14) to make 2 leagues. So for the purpose of illustration if the Midlothian and East Lothian clubs talk and agree to go together, plus Bo'ness and Lithgae (or any other SL / Premier clubs), the EoS set-up might look like this (assuming Kelty get promoted and Hawick are relegated as per the current league positions): East of Scotland Season 2018/19 Premier 1. Hawick Royal Albert (R) 2. Preston Athletic 3. Leith Athletic 4. Heriot Watt University 5. Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale 6. Tynecastle 7. Peebles Rovers 8. Stirling University (EOSFL) 9. Coldstream 10. Burntisland Shipyard 11. Eyemouth United 12. Bonnyrigg Rose 13. Linlithgow Rose 14. Bo'ness First 1. Ormiston (R) 2. Tweedmouth Rangers (R) 3. Duns (New) 4. Newtongrange Star 5. Penicuik Athletic 6. Musselburgh Athletic 7. Tranent 8. Dunbar United 9. Haddington Athletic 10. Dalkeith Thistle 11. Arniston Rangers 12. Edinburgh United 13. Craigroyston 14. Easthouses Lily So for Newtongrange for example, they would probably immediately meet the standards for a licence in terms of their facilities and youth set-up, would be about £5k better off before a ball is kicked (as SFA members). They'd save the £3-4k they currently spend on buses in SL, have derbies every other week, plus a crack at the big Scottish Cup EVERY season. No brainer... You're not going to get all these clubs buying in at the same time... but equally, if the West Lothian clubs get together and 2 or 3 want to go, and the Fife clubs get together and 2 or 3 want to do it, you've have 2 leagues right away, no problem. Eventually the others will surely follow across. Small steps - 2 leagues next season is do-able, and well worthwhile financially in the short term, but most importantly there's a long-term incentive to develop their club and get into the LL. If, miraculously, all these clubs do buy in as above, how does that leave the Super League and East Premier for those remaining? It's a bigger risk sitting still waiting on the Association and doing nothing than being decisive like what Kelty have done and moving over now.

I wonder if any West region clubs would be into that rather than SoS route to the Lowland - eg Pollok in the Premiership...? Only an hour or so for most of those clubs into Glasgow. Eyemouth currently go to Stirling and vice-versa so why not? Linlithgow to Pollok is 50 minutes? Pollok to LTHV in an hour. Really could be a fantastic league. Endless permutations I suppose but the key thing is establishing the principle that what is set out above is achievable, everyone keeping an open mind, and of course the EoS Association welcoming the approach and some of it's clubs being amenable to being demoted right away. On the face of it though it seems like an easy sell to the likes of Ormiston and Coldstream when looking at the new clubs they'd be in with and the (slightly) reduced travel distance for league matches.

What about Newburgh?? Only kidding - it's really good, basically what it could look like if all the clubs switched over next season. And every single club would be able to work towards a licence and ultimately have access to the Scottish Cup regardless of which division or region they find themselves in. Not sure I'd have Camelon ahead of Newtongrange mind you...

Actually thought Lochore are North region...?

Completely agree - although to my mind the discussion and promotion has to be led by the clubs, rather than by the SJFA which as an organisation is not properly serving the interests of its member clubs.

Sorry Alan - it's meant to be just a list of clubs from the 3 regions within the East Junior set-up as quoted by the previous poster, and not 3 league tables. The purpose is to show that if 10 of these 39 clubs moved to EoS, there would be 2 leagues of 12 when added to the existing clubs. My point is that even if only 3 or 4 of the top SL clubs make the switch (worst / best case scenario whichever way you look at it, say any 3 from: Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Newtongrange, Broxburn) then you'd be left with a diminished league - same applies to the Premier. Given the obvious financial and competitive long-term incentives for these clubs to do so (with SFA Licence) this is a real possibility.

aye, sorry, that's the 15th

Trying to solve the puzzle for the whole of the Junior grade is too much of an undertaking in one sitting, so my thoughts are that clubs from each Region should focus on what changes they can influence, and where their knowledge and experience lies. i.e East clubs aren't going to resolve the West or North region dilemma. So as a starting point using Cyclizine's format for the East comprising: Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh, Fife, you'd have 39 Junior clubs from which to form 2 EoS leagues of 12 (Premier and First?). There are 14 EoS clubs as things stand (including Duns, who are planning to return next year). So to form 2 divisions, you'd require only 9 more (in addition to your own) to make that format work. That's one season of pretty much local derbies, before 2 go up and 2 down thereafter. And presumably if that 9 includes 2 or 3 SL clubs, others will follow. Pick 9 clubs and form a EoS 2nd Division. Another 4 on top of that and there's 2 leagues of 14. WEST & CENTRAL: 15 Linlithgow Rose Broxburn Athletic Camelon Juniors Boness United Sauchie Juniors Fauldhouse United Blackburn United Bathgate Thistle Whitburn Juniors Pumpherston Juniors West Calder United Armadale Thistle Livingston United Stoneyburn Juniors MID & EAST: 12 Penicuik Athletic Bonnyrigg Rose Newtongrange Star Musselburgh Athletic Haddington Athletic Tranent Juniors Dalkeith Thistle Dunbar United Arniston Rangers Edinburgh United Craigroyston Easthouses Lily MW FIFE: 12 Dundonald Bluebell Hill of Beath Hawthorn Kennoway Star Hearts Tayport St Andrews Glenrothes Thornton Hibs Rosyth Lochgelly Albert Crossgates Primrose Oakley United Kirkcaldy YM Looking ahead from Blackburn's point of view since that's your club - for the sake of argument - if you take the clubs who have reportedly shown interest in the Pyramid out of the SL, along with Kelty who have already gone, what is the attraction in working towards promotion to the Super League and staying in this grade? The Junior Cup?