Che Dail
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Posts posted by Che Dail
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25 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:
Really? By my calculations, applying the "floodlights or beat it to the amateurs" criterion cited would leave us with a cosy ten teams in the West and maybe the same in the East.
Not too many of those are anywhere near being the strongest teams either; no Pollok, Talbot, Beith, Hurlford, Glenafton or Clydebank - out East, no Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Lochee or Penicuik, just to give a few examples.
At the moment clubs don't need to have floodlights for entry level SFA license.
Penicuik do have lights though, and Bonnyrigg I believe were considering installing them.
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7 hours ago, parsforlife said:
On the face of it a positive move. However that's only true if it isn't filled with the same isolationist, scaremongers that have been on such groups before.
It's a working group "formed from the Committee".
The same group as before?
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57 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:
You could be right, it obviously doesn't help that the current incumbents at the top Junior table aren't interested in engaging on the subject.
What about this from the SJFA in September:
PYRAMID
The East Region Secretary updated the Committee on Pyramid. It was agreed that a Working Party be formed from the Committee to determine the best possible way forward for Junior Football.
Sorted then eh?
A Working Party.
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3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
I don't think mentioning that strengthens your argument. It was a poorly written, Ill conceived pile of horse shite. Which ideas would you adopt from it?
I quite like page 26, it starts with a quote:
Keep away from those who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you believe that you too can become great. Mark Twain
And goes on:
Setting audacious goals comes with inherent risks; not least failure or inability to deliver on the promise and the criticism that will inevitably follow. Yet, what is the point in compiling a new strategic plan that serves simply to accept mediocrity or embrace the average? Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all? That quote strikes at the Calvinist trait prevalent in our society: not to dream too wildly for fear or being perceived as arrogant or mad.
Scottish football, as the national game, deserves better than to be given a cursory tidy-up. The reality of now is that the game is suffering the corrosive effects of decades of inertia, uncertainty, vested interest and apathy. The Scottish Football Association will be criticised whether it does nothing or tries too hard. Better the latter.
In order to convince the game’s other stakeholders we first had to convince ourselves. That done, the argument became compelling. For a game accused of being mired in self-interest, ‘what’s in it for us?’ seemed a good starting point in discussions with the great and good of the game. Not so much what’s in it for us as, what if…
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12 minutes ago, Bankies Alive said:
Theres no point in going on about the pyramid for your club at the moment anyway as we don't have a club license.
You don't need a license to be in the leagues which feed in to the LL, but without one you can't get promoted. To form a new league each club would need to commit to the pyramid.
LTHV couldn't progress last season because they don't have one, although they did get admitted to the Scottish Cup as winners of the EoS. (If you do get licensed you'd be in the Scottish Cup regardless of which league you're in).
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1 minute ago, Bankies Alive said:
Do you think the people who run the SFA are forward thinkers?
Yes, they are - which is why they employed Henry McLeish to produce a wide-ranging vision for the game in Scotland - the pyramid formed part of his recommendations.
It needs buy-in from the clubs to work though, the SFA isn't an 'authority body' that can force change.
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Just now, Sunrise said:
Not disagreeing ultimately but if you think it'll be easy, you haven't been to a West region meeting!
'Man sets no store by which he gained easily' or something along those lines.
Anyway, if 16 West Region clubs aligned to form a new league and applied to the SFA for it to join the pyramid, pitched alongside the SoS instead of below it... would that work?
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2 minutes ago, Sunrise said:
would you expect clubs like my own to move en-masse, no matter how ambitious...
Yes - every single club should move across and make it work from the inside. It really doesn't have to be that complicated. Clubs would still keep their 100+ years of history, they'd still be playing against their local rivals but there would be something to aim for beyond the top league.
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8 minutes ago, Che Dail said:
Erm... Something lost in translation with the definition of 'regional' - travel time is equivalent to Elgin to Oxford!
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7 hours ago, lowenan said:
Meaning in group six of the fourth level you have matches where there are 1683 km between the teams. Several of the groups have ten hour drives to get to a stadium.
Erm... Something lost in translation with the definition of 'regional' - travel time is equivalent to Elgin to Oxford!
Mind you, by comparison if Oslo (thro Sweden) to Tromso is a 22 hr drive - the 10hr derby fixture is a walk in the park!
Thanks for the info btw, good feedback.
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11 hours ago, HTG said:
I just don't get some of the points being made on here. Ok, Edinburgh City replacing East Stirling doesn't change the world in the grand scheme of things. But it changes things for Edinburgh City and East Stirling. It reflects the ups and downs of football throughthe league structures.
Every club should have that opportunity surely? If folk are so scathing of the change of circumstances for the 2 clubs mentioned, what is it that's different when we consider promotion and relegation in the current structure. Why bother relegating Troon and promoting Girvan? What's the point really? Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. f**k it - let Girvan stay where they are and enjoy being the big fish in their pond battering their head off the ceiling they've reached.
Folk can argue about the model but anyone who thinks clubs shouldn't have the right in principle to advance based on their ability to meet the standards and conditions appropriate to the next level is living in a parallel universe.
Yes - and it's not just clubs, it's also about getting players and coaches at the appropriate level based on their abilities.
At the moment there are better players at some Junior clubs than in League 2. For some it's more attractive to play at this grade simply because they don't want to travel and can spend more time with family or focus time on their professional life / career outside football. Others will clear more money (playing a lower grade of football) and that's a motivating factor.
So the Senior leagues are not as competitive as they should be because the best players aren't in it, and ultimately that's not healthy for the game at the top level.
Below the top two pro leagues it should be feasible / viable for the best local players to be playing at the best local club.
In the top two leagues it's a job / career, which is different.
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20 minutes ago, archieb said:
Read the post again, the reference was to Wigtown, not Pollok!
Aye I see what you mean, I thought you were saying Pollok were left out...
The structure is literally a cut and paste of club names taken from league websites and Wigtown aren't in the SoS set-up.
No voodoo powers I'm afraid!
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19 minutes ago, rednblack said:
Are you Stuart Regan . Full of hot air no really got a clue just making it up as you go along
Nope. Not full of hot air either - just looking to Denmark, Norway, Germany for inspiration.
Are you Alf Garnett?
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9 hours ago, archieb said:
That post is almost complete codswallop from beginning to end and fails to make any coherent point that I can fathom!
Portraying the LL as a target for Pollok etc to aspire to? - maybe just the merest hint of a grain of potential future in that one - or maybe not.
Claiming as you and the SFA do that the SoSFL is a viable route for WSJFA clubs into the LL - or anywhere else other than oblivion - utter nonsense.
Quoting Ballingry's demise (a lower division ESJFA club) and unspecified West clubs as equivalent to the loss of a leading, licensed SoSFL club is puerile. What was the last time a club in the top division of the West Juniors folded at the start of a season for ANY reason?
Sevco, Hearts & Gretna - relevance? None. And here I think you must be confusing licensing with administration!!
A thing isn't nonsense just because you don't understand it.
'Level of aspiration' refers to an approach by a group or an individual to achieve or perform a task. The success is determined in part by the drive to complete it. In the context of this conversation, if the 'drive' is to get to the Lowland League then the SoS route is the 'process' (as things stand).
In other words, no matter what standard the SoS league is, and regardless of the increased travel distance, if the LL is the target you will get there. And in the process (Obtaining a License and competing in the Scottish Cup) a well-run club should thrive and improve.
If Junior clubs were to commit to the pyramid they would have a say in how the route into LL is structured. At the moment they stand on the outside and can only look on and see how it develops without them. 'The pyramid is flawed' we were told at the recent AGM. Of course it is flawed, because Junior clubs are not in it!
Nobody is saying that SL Junior clubs should 'aspire' to play in the SoS. Similarly, at the opposite end nobody is suggesting that Premier League football is a reasonable or appropriate level of ambition.
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7 hours ago, Hillonearth said:
WTF? The sum total of two West Region clubs have folded in the last 20 years - Baillieston through being shafted through a land deal and Stonehouse Violet through local apathy (short version: nobody in the village wanted to join the committee, outsiders revived the club and the locals never subsequently went to see them because outsiders were running it - go figure...).
We're talking here about one of the leading lights in the league we should apparently be aspiring to join chucking it on the eve of a new season for various reasons according to the SoS subforum on here - the cost of licensing is being cited as a contributory factor along with too many local sides competing for too few players in a sparsely populated area. It's also worth noting that they were running away with the league last season until they did their sums and worked out what promotion to the LL would cost them, after which they did their level best to come second.
Incidentally, I seem to remember your proposed league structure from last week omitted them - do you possess voodoo powers?
I thought his club was Pollok - They're shown in the LL alongside Airdrie, Clyde, Albion Rovers, Dumbarton, Auchinleck, Glenafton.
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4 hours ago, archieb said:
The SoSL a route into the Pyramid for West Junior clubs? What a joke!
The LICENSED team that finished 1st, 3rd, 2nd in the last 3 seasons (Wigtown) has just folded, apparently unable to raise a squad of players in sparsely populated Galloway.
And yet theirs is the League that ambitious West clubs are expected to aspire to joining? Unbelievable!!
The level of aspiration suggested by proponents of the pyramid is for clubs like yours to reach the Lowland League and the SoS is the route to that.
A well run club is not likely to be ruined by aiming for the LL.
Ballingry folded recently (East SL) and West region juniors have too due to financial mis-management or other reasons.
Rangers, Hearts, Gretna were all licensed though difficult times... really comes down to the people in charge.
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2 hours ago, lowenan said:
The Norwegian league system works fine as well, and lots of small clubs travel more than five hours here. Long country and lots of fjords.
Do clubs outwith the top two divisions travel long distances, I.e over 2hrs? According to website it is regional below that at 2nd division (fair play league, 56 clubs in 4 groups) then 12 regional sections below that (3rd division split north / south).
I noticed that reserve teams can play in 2nd division also.
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7 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:
If anybody has the time, google German football league set up via wikipedia.Thats what should be done in this country,3 professional leagues of 18-18-20 clubs then regionalised divisions that are all linked via promotion and relegation where in theory a team like hurlford amateurs could progress to west junior prem and so on.Take a look in more detail,if looking for efficient set up you know the Germans will have found it, and they say almost every club finds their level.
Yes - it works.
Danish system is similar too - 2 top (pro) leagues of 14 and 12 (best v best), then 3 regional 2nd divisions, and below each of those is the Denmark Series.
Our equivalent of those 2nd divisions could be Highland / Lowland East / Lowland West. The EoS / SoS etc would be the Series equivalent. Below that is amateur.
Danish population close to Scotland £5m ish and is also similar in terms of geography, i.e. it's a 4 hr drive from Aalborg to Copenhagen.
Meanwhile in Scotland Berwick will travel to Elgin twice (nearly 5hrs) and vice versa - something not right with that, at this grade of football...
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23 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
I meant the WC Qualification.
Haha
aye maybe not this time round Sarge
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4 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
There is a lot of wishful thinking in there. I doubt there is that much profit for the clubs or SJFA. I really don't see the relevance of any of this to the national team.
Licensed clubs receive a payment every season from the SFA - i think this year for the 6th tier clubs it is about £6k. The overall pot varies depending on SFA profit from the previous year, so more money would be generated if Scotland reached the World Cup finals - that would be a good year for everyone.
Agree it is wishful thinking that all junior clubs would move en-masse to the pyramid.
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12 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
What if 20 odd decent sized west juniors joined up and got their licenses, would the Scottish Cup kitty be increased to make sure they got a fair share, or would the existing pot be spread a bit thinner? Or would it just be the extra gates and the chance of fluking a big draw? Part of the attraction just now is the novelty and prestige of being part of a small group of qualifiers. I'm not sure it would be the same if everybody was in it.
As i understand it the licensed clubs receive a share of the SFA profit year on year. So if there are more clubs registered, on the face of it, there would be less available per club.
But if you look at it in more detail the new members would help to generate profit for the association (as they evidently do now for the SJFA) - so in theory the more clubs switching over, the more profitable the association would become, so more cash would be paid out across the board at the start of each season.
And you have to believe that the Scottish national team will continue to improve and progress and get to a world cup finals which ultimately is what it's all about. If they do, and the national association receives a windfall, all the member clubs would benefit.
Cash generated from a Scottish Cup run is what you make of it. You'd have to advance in the competition and of curse there's a degree of luck in the draw.
In the previous 3 seasons on average 10 "non-league" clubs have reached the 3rd round, 4 ave have made it to the 4th round and in 2014/15 Spartans reached the 5th round. Top level SL junior clubs could aspire to this.
Within the same timeframe non-league clubs have been drawn against Celtic, Hibs, Motherwell, Ross County, Hamilton, Partick, St Mirren, Dunfermline, Raith, Morton.
The money generated from every one of these fixtures stays in the "non-league" game.
The Scottish Junior Cup on the other hand will generate barely any revenue for your club, unless they win it or gets to the final and even at that the amount of money raised is not significant.
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46 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:
So what you're actually talking about is a land grab for the SoSL - say a dozen West Region teams decamping en masse for there at once and forming a second tier of the South below the preexisting one? Do you actually see anyone signing up for six or seven years slog of maybe two of those sides going up to the "top" tier each season until the "new" teams eventually replace the current SoSL teams?
Bear in mind we're also talking about a setup that would have to actually vote in the new members that were turning up team-handed to supplant them in their own backyard...does anyone see them voting yes and thus acquiescing to their own eventual oblivion? There was enough debate in South circles recently about admitting one side from Kilmarnock as it lay outside their traditional catchment area of the far south-west.
That's not progression, that's hoping against hope for a chance to keep the score down in a cuptie every decade or so. Scotland's already got enough senior sides hoping to feed off the scraps from the Twin Cheeks' table as is.
Not quite a 'land grab' because it wouldn't be a hostile act, it's not a takeover. The move would be mutually beneficial for the existing SoS clubs and the Juniors clubs.
I'd have thought it would be a welcome problem for the SoS league secretary to manage and make it work. The pitch to the clubs would simply be that the standard of the division would improve considerably, gates would go up, improved player recruitment prospects and the profile of the league would be enhanced. The league is committed to the pyramid after all so I'm not sure why they'd want to prevent new members from joining.
The ex Junior clubs would be free to make their license application and gain entry to the Scottish Cup every season - as other clubs have shown recently it's not beyond the realms of possibility to go on a run which generates a huge amount of interest and decent income that they otherwise would not have access to. And they'd still be playing against their local rivals week to week.
It might not be necessary to make the clubs start afresh in a tier below the SoS - I suspect there would be a case to be made to re-structure the league to suit the full and enhanced list of members and this could be done by negotiation.
Hypothetically speaking you could take the top half of SL clubs and the top half SoS clubs and form a 1st division of 16, and the bottom half of both leagues form a 2nd division of 16, with say 3 up 3 down and a playoff for 4th bottom and 4th top. That way the impact would be immediate (for both leagues) and not over 6-7 years as you suggest. Clubs would quickly find their level and within a couple of seasons more clubs would surely follow.
Beyond that, with the Juniors committed to the pyramid, there would be a fresh case to be made for a Lowland League West, and a Lowland League East. I honestly think that would be progressive.
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37 minutes ago, JackD1908 said:
One game against the ugly sisters doesn't point to progression, it points at being happy with an unsuccessful nomadic existence. One game would be great but every other week your playing teams with next to no support. Plenty of times last season we had bigger crowds at Newlandsfield than the whole of league 1&2 and the odd championship game. Junior football is what it is, but it's a lot more intersting than the senior football in Scotland.
I'm agreeing with Rob Roy guy, bloody hell.
But it wouldn't be a nomadic existence if all the clubs moved across.
You'd take the £150k + for the Scottish cup run then go back to playing the teams you've always played, the derbies and the relatively big crowds.
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53 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:
Only in Scotland could you hope that first sentence made sense.
No it's not. First and biggest clue is its name. It covers a completely different geographical area of the country, with virtually no overlap in footprint..
Seriously, buy a map and look at where the clubs play strung along the coast from Stranraer to Annan.
Then take a look at the venues most of them play at; a few groundshare at the likes of Palmerston or have decent enclosed grounds (Threave, St Cuthbert's and so on) but a good proportion play at schools, 3G cages or the corner of farmers' fields. They're all here: http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/
Lastly, go and actually watch a couple of the games. I don't want it to seem like South-bashing; the SoSL is what it is, but the standard is generally fairly low overall.
Again, only in Scotland could you pontificate to a side like Talbot or Pollok that playing at that level is a step up..."progresion" ....
..."progression" for a side like Talbot or Pollok would be playing Rangers or Celtic in the Scottish Cup, which might go some way towards paying for the bus to Threave.
I'd rather we all looked up rather than down.
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Junior football, what is the future?
in Junior Football
Posted
Clubs wishing for change should act now rather than waiting for the association to report on progress, otherwise there's a risk that the same conversation will be happening in a year's time and no further forward.
Set something up Burnie Man...