Marten
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Posts posted by Marten
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2 minutes ago, highlandcowden said:
was thinking of trying to score a cup final ticket-I was there last time 'well won in 91-but I thought,nah,relaxed day at a junior game for me
Will be my first cup final. I don't support either team, so I can just enjoy it.
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20 minutes ago, highlandcowden said:
after the stress of last weekends playoff game I'm looking forward to a weekend in the central belt,wishaw home on Friday,troon on Saturday and a LL cup final,glasgow-CSS,on sunday.live footy and sunny weather I hope, a nice way to round off the season
Going to that one as well!
Saturday Celtic v Motherwell at Hampden, followed by this one on Sunday. Obviously, the one on Saturday is just a starter for the main one on Sunday.
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1 minute ago, Isabel Goudie said:
Can I just ad thatts goinging to be good weather this weekend.
Good, so I can enjoy watching football in good weather.
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1 hour ago, Robert James said:
SoSFL champions excluded from LL play-off under your proposal ??
It appears that the West Juniors don't consider that SOSFL clubs should be included in a WoSL pyramid feeder league, if/when is it is formed. The existing West Super League will have 16 clubs in the Juniors' new set up for 2018/19.
In my opinion, the new WoSFL should invite SoSFL & West Superleague teams. The remaining teams in both leagues can then be feeders to the WoSFL. The area that the SoSFL serves is too small to be a LL feeder league in itself and I can imagine that most teams in the league don't fancy long trips to current West Superleague teams, so they can keep playing each other.
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3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:
I’m not really sure how the Junior Cup could actually work as an all-inclusive competition at the moment without causing major disruption. Given that the vast majority of Junior clubs don’t have floodlights, postponed matches would be tricky.
You’d probably need to play the early rounds in August, September and October on a regional basis, use November/December/January to clear any backlog on free Saturdays (or midweek where possible), and then resume in February where the rounds went national and play February, March, April with Semis (one game) and Final in May. Postponed games post-break could cause issues unless free weeks were factored into the fixture calendar, or again if midweeks could be used.
Replays would need to be dumped with the tie settled over 120 minutes and penalties, no two legged semi-finals either. Licenced clubs could receive byes for the first couple of rounds to take account of their Scottish Cup commitments.
Perhaps some cups in HL/LL/EoS/SoS area would need to be dumped or amended to accommodate these extra fixtures. Would they be interested?
To make it work it would not look anything like the current Junior Cup set-up.
There are 160 junior teams currently. Add HL/LL/EoS/SoS teams to it and there are still fewer than 256 teams, meaning no extra rounds are needed. I do think something in the senior section needs to be dumped, but that shouldn't be an issue as they get a national cup to replace it.
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29 minutes ago, Robert James said:
No tactics needed. If a club joins, but doesn't have a licence, it can't get promoted to the Lowland League under present rules. Clubs might decide to take years to obtain one. Also, some EoS clubs can't get one, eg Peebles Rovers, because their ground isn't enclosed.
Clubs can indeed just not apply for a license to avoid promotion. Mandatory promotion from LL to SPFL should be in place for a proper pyramid (with more relegation places from SPFL). I would like to see 3 relegation places from LL. To prevent teams blocking promotion, the highest eligible teams from both WOS & EOS should get promoted together with a play-off winner. If a licensed team turns down promotion, they lose the license and can only qualify for the Scottish cup via qualifying routes. In that way all teams can be in the pyramid.
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I have no problem with people watching & enjoying junior football. I regularly watch non-league football, both junior and senior, which I love & enjoy. I just still don't think there is much of a difference. At both senior and junior non-league football I have visited proper community clubs, generally paid a very fair ticket price and encountered friendly people & hard working volunteers who clearly care about their club. I have seen good and poor attendances & standards of football at both. To me, non-league is non-league, it's something I love and regularly watch, but all the "advantages" of junior football, also exist in senior non-league football, so I just don't see the big problem. I have yet to be convinced about 1 good thing of junior football that can't happen in a pyramid. Yes, there is the junior cup, but I see no reason why that can't be expanded to include all of non-league. And let's be honest, for the vast majority of junior sides, the junior cup is not something they can realistically win. That doesn't make these clubs any less of a community club.
Many of the "arguments" against the pyramid are a result of the non-participation of the SJFA. No, I'm not a fan of Edusport, but would they honestly have been in the LL now if they'd first have to battle past the strong west juniors like Auchinleck Talbot and others? They played it by the rules and have every right to be where they are, but they wouldn't have been at that level in a proper pyramid. Poorly supported teams exist on both sides of the "divide". Anti-pyramid posters like to point out that the pyramid is "flawed", but with most non-league clubs not taking part, it's always going to be flawed. Had all juniors been in it, then there would have been better promotion/relegation for example. The standard now drops rapidly when you go down the leagues, with more strong teams that would be far less the case so there would be a much stronger case for a better promotion/relegation settlement. And finally, how can people claim that in a pyramid the juniors would have no say if they have literally refused to properly engage all those years?
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6 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:
I suggest the contrary! Except I think yours are complete shite!
I red dot posts when I see insults (like monkeys and other unacceptable posts. That often includes your posts. I don't red dot people I disagree with just because of disagreeing with it, as long as that post is in a respectable manner, fine, agree to disagree.
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58 minutes ago, BENJI BOY said:
Take it that's the Gouda in Southern Holland where the cheese market and other attactions are..you are referring too?
It is indeed.
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11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:
Benji, what's the difference between Community Junior football and Community football in the EoS?There is no difference except for a label, it's as simple as that.
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2 hours ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:
Is he called Isabel Gouda?
Well, the city of Gouda does happen to be in the part of the country where most of the stubborn anti-pyramid clubs are from.
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5 minutes ago, heedthebaa said:
Really ?
Apologies, I quoted the wrong post... I meant to reply to Isa!
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I'm also active on a Dutch forum, where there is a heated discussion about the pyramid over there. Some people are very conservative and afraid of any change. But there is one who hurls insults at everyone disagreeing with him, keeps going on about it when his posts get deleted, calls clubs that want change traitors to the "grade", keeps repeating his point while ignoring any counter arguments and comes with unacceptable comparisons at times. That feels quite familiar to me by now...
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47 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:
SoS is tier 6. Having six leagues (the three junior superleagues, SoS, EoS and maybe the North Caley league) feeding into two at the first regionalised step would be nothing out of the ordinary, if you look at other country's pyramid systems around Europe. There are examples elsewhere that show that everything doesn't need to be neatly split on geography. In Holland, for example, the semi-pro and amateur leagues at the lower levels are split based on whether home games are played on Saturdays (Dutch Reformed leaning teams as Holland has a Calvinist bible belt that still keeps the Sabbath the way Scotland used to) or Sundays (RC and socialist leaning teams) as much as they are on geography. Will be interesting to see what happens with the SJFA's EGM and how the SFA will handle this issue publicly in the months ahead.
To be honest, I don't think the Dutch situation should be used as an example for the pyramid over here. I'm originally from The Netherlands and I can categorically state that the Dutch "pyramid" structure is a great example of how to NOT set it up in Scotland. Third tier teams that don't want to get promoted (as they are generally from the bible belt & are happy to just stay non-league) basically choke the system and block the route to the professional leagues for ambitious non-league teams. These teams are in terms of support and budget on a par with teams in the top half of the second tier. Them refusing to get promoted and effectively playing a division too low, makes it very difficult for other teams to try and get into the second tier.
I'd ideally like to see all juniors in the pyramid, but we need to ensure that teams that don't want to get promoted don't block off the route for everyone else. I also think it's madness to have 2 feeder leagues covering the same geographic area. As opposed to the difference in day they play in Dutch non-league, there is no rational argument why LL feeder leagues in the East of Scotland should be split in 2 separate systems.
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8 minutes ago, Jamesw said:
Where? Have they said how sections will be split?
The new clubs have been announced by them, can't remember where, but I'm sure someone else can tell. The new structure depends on the outcome of the AGM & possible late applications.
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2 hours ago, Robert James said:
Don't need to do this providing amateur clubs have the opportunity to apply for promotion if they wish to do so, and there isn't a 'closed shop' on entry.
They can just be in the pyramid in the same way as promotion/relegation in England between non-league steps 6 and 7 (tiers 10/11) works. Step 7 is a whole collection of local leagues. Teams can apply for promotion if they want, but they are not forced to get promoted. Teams that applied then replace the bottom 2 in the step 6 leagues. If more teams have applied (& fit the requirements) than there are places available, only a certain number get promoted based on the final league tables. If fewer teams have applied than there are places available, teams that would have been relegated get reprieved.
That can easily be done in Scotland. If the SJFA will remain for teams that won't join the pyramid, then the remaining SJFA leagues & SAFA leagues will effectively form the next level in the "pyramid", feeding into the lowest regular pyramid level.
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36 minutes ago, virginton said:
Skalica or Šamorín to Bardejov in the Slovak second tier is a ten hour round trip; Sered' to Košice or indeed anywhere in the east of the country in the same division is an eight hour round trip. The league's average attendance is less than 500 and clubs take in about 4 Euros per adult spectator. In the Croatian second tier, a round trip from Varaždin to Šibeník is an eight hour round trip and you can add another two hours to get to Split - once again in a national league.
The idea that the amount of travelling involved in Scottish professional football is unusually large or difficult for its relatively well-off clubs to sustain is complete and utter nonsense then.
Or Alta v Fram Larvik in the regionalised Norwegian 3rd tier, a 25 hour drive . Clubs in that level are not more professional and better supported than in SPFL 2.
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21 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:
I was just thinking about the quality of clubs remaining in the East Juniors, in contrast to those who have bolted.
Ranking the clubs 1-48 by their current positions (points per game) and discounting the North section which isn't providing any clubs to the EOS then this is the outcome
Probable East Junior top division 2018-19 with their 2017-18 positions
2 Linlithgow Rose
3 Penicuik Athletic
4 Dundonald Bluebell
5 Broxburn Athletic
6 Lochee United
7 Bo'ness United
8 Broughty Athletic
11 Sauchie Juniors
12 Carnoustie Panmure
13 Newtongrange Star
14 Jeanfield Swifts
15 Kennoway Star Hearts
16 Forfar West End
18 Fauldhouse United
21 Tayport
22 Thornton Hibs
Average position 11
EOS 2018-19
1 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic
9 Hill of Beath Hawthorn
10 Camelon Juniors
17 Musselburgh Athletic
19 Haddington Athletic
20 Blackburn United
25 Tranent Juniors
29 Dalkeith Thistle
34 Edinburgh United
39 Crossgates Primrose
44 Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare
Average position 22.5
And remember, these clubs are actually strengthening(!) the EOS.
You are forgetting the point that the EOS will split into 2 divisions after a transitional season. Taking into account Dundonald Bluebell coming over in 2019, the EOS Premier could look something like this:
- Vale of Leithen
- Hawick Royal Albert
- Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic
- Dundonald Bluebell
- Hale of Beath Hawthorn
- Camelon Juniors
- Musselburgh Athletic
- Haddington Athletic
- Blackburn United
- Lothian Thistle Hutchinson Vale
- Preston Athletic
- Leith Athletic
- Peebles Rovers
- Tynecastle
I wouldn't say that's a bad division and not much difference in quality with what remains in EOS. Obviously, promotion/relegation with LL & Clydebank's entrance if there is no WOS being started can change things, but this at least gives a rough picture.
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40 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:
Except that we are not talking about per capita crowds attending football matches. We are talking about crowds. It is a nonsense argument to claim that having semi-pros travelling the length and breadth of Scotland to play in front of 600 is more justifiable than full time pros travelling the length and breadth of England to play in front of 6,000 (though personally I think the fourth tier in England should also be regionalised).
If it ever happens, a real Scottish pyramid would benefit from regionalisation at a higher level than at present. A top division of 12 and a second division of 18 is probably more than enough to be competing nationally. The rest of the odds and sods should go regional.
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In England there are roughly 110 full-time clubs (92 in the EFL + most of the National League), in Scotland 20. Still a crazy comparison. If you look at the attendances of the SPL other than Rangers/Celtic, you're basically looking at numbers 3-12 in Scotland. Compared to England's population, you'll need to look at numbers 30-120 there, that's from Bristol City until Dartford. If you compare it in that way, Scotland isn't doing bad at all.
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2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:
What a numpty you are. Scotland is in a league of its own when it comes to the disproportion influence on attendance figures of just two clubs. Didn't you know that? Jeez.
Take away the top two and the average attendance is halved
England - average 38k
Take away top 4 and it's 32k- a 15% drop.
Exceptionally large number of people LOL! Because they nearly all got the Ibrox and Celtic Park!!!! Scotland's figures are skewed unlike any other country. 20 teams attract more than 1000. Two teams in SPFL1 attract over 1000. None in SPFL2 do.
As said above, it's madness to compare Scotland to England as they're so much bigger! Here are some more accurate comparisons:
- The Netherlands, 18,986 average, without Ajax/Feyenoord/PSV/Twente 12,539, 34% drop
- Belgium, 10,867 average, without Bruge/Gent/Liege/Anderlecht 8,266, 25% drop
- Portugal, 12,341 average, without Benfica/Sporting/Porto 4,090, 67% drop
- Greece, 5,116 average, without Olympiacos/PAOK/AEK 1,834, 64% drop
- Denmark, 5,996 average, without Kopenhagen/Brondby 4,573, 24% drop
- Serbia, 2,301 average, without Red Star/Partizan 1,468, 36% drop
- Switzerland, 9,944 average, without Basel/Young Boys 6,939, 30% drop
As can be seen, some countries have a larger drop than others, but it's the same in all European leagues outside the top: take away the top and the average attendances drop significantly. Of these countries, only Denmark is roughly the size of Scotland. All others are significantly larger. The attendance in Scotland without Celtic/ Rangers is higher than in all other countries outside the top leagues, with the exception of The Netherlands, a country with a population 3 times the size of Scotland's. Scotland's attendance without Celtic/Rangers is still larger than the average in Greece, Denmark and Serbia, while not being much less than Switzerland and Belgium.
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15 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:
There is a massive difference between the 6th tier in England and the 4th in Scotland.
Darlington average crowd 1,500. Salford 1,600.
Maybe tier 7 is a better comparison, but there are still massive journeys there for teams with little support. Halesowen Town v Workington is a journey of over 4 hours. Average travel in that division is likely a fair bit more than in SPFL 2.
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4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:
You answered your own point there less teams but it seldom happens pretty much because of the bad winter we had. Point is they were all going on about the travelling when we have to do that on monday
Plus, if you'd look at the extremes in travelling, then it's possible to get journeys of over 2 hours in the juniors too. Imagine Forfar West End v Dunbar being played on a Monday night...
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5 minutes ago, Jason King said:
Yes Celtic and Aberdeen, they really ought to look up to Auchinleck Talbot.
When Talbot win a European competition then maybe but in the meantime.........
Celtic and Aberdeen are not in non-league football as far as I know.
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In my opinion, it makes sense to change that so clubs can turn down promotion. As long as that's combined with a rule that the best team that want it get a chance of promotion. That would make it easier to form a pyramid without clubs having to worry about not being able to afford promotion or something like that. If the likes of Auchinleck Talbot (for example) want to keep playing at the level where they are, they should be able to, as long as they don't block the route for others imo. Same could go for the north, if the NCL becomes a feeder to the HL, I can imagine some clubs not wanting promotion even if they are licensed. Imagine Orkney being forced to go to the HL and having to travel to Aberdeenshire or even as far as Dundee (if any of the teams there would end up in the HL). They would have a legitimate reason for not wanting to get promoted as the travel costs could be extreme.
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League reconstruction: Let's hear your view
in Scottish Football - Fans' Views
Posted
The Dutch play-off formula is a mess, I wouldn't use that. Also, your set-up wouldn't work, 18 would be too many for the SPL. And we're just moving to a pyramid system, while you want to stop relegation?
And groups in the cup? No thanks...