Dev
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Posts posted by Dev
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2 hours ago, Jambo'ness said:
I agree with much of what you propose. However, there will be the usual 'ah but' brigade to pour oil on what could be smooth waters.
If we take stock, the 'way forward' has already started but was never going to be an easy ride. The SFA have ensured that and the SJFA have been happy to hide behind them.
What has happened to Bonnyrigg this season is a disgrace but it won't happen again. There is an irresistible force of clubs looking to progress and they will overcome the barriers put up by the SFA. It really is just a matter of time.
There is much merit to what ijfife writes.
Don't forget that the "SJFA hiding behind the SFA" started last summer after the majority of Junior clubs showed that they were up for the Pyramid and TJ admitted that he had been surprised by this. Since then there has been the SFA "moratorium" on Membership/Licencing applications, etc. This is not simply a co-incidence, as TJ is a member of staff at the SFA and would have known all about this - but said nothing about it himself to the Juniors/ex Juniors last summer! Co-incidence that nothing much has moved forward re the Pyramid ever since?
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4 hours ago, wullie robb said:
Reading that statement from the SFA is almost identical to Reading a statement from Theresa May.
Wants you to believe it but knows it's a lie....
Interesting!
There is an illness which may match these symptoms which are known as Confabulation. Check it out on the internet.
Thinking that there are striking similarities between an un-named politician and the behaviour of some in a certain nations' football organisation.
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17 minutes ago, leftbehind said:
Still think there are a few under age finals to be completed on Sundays but could be wrong. But agree if contractors in place and liason with power company is ongoing then its full steam ahead. The car park is going to be busy in the months ahead.
Is there any possibility of getting the Lights up and working by the next Licencing Meeting? When would that be - the meeting?
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12 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:
In recent press coverage about what HL do if... when... Cove go up, it discussed the fact HL had met with North Juniors earlier in the season about the pyramid and had "cordially" agreed to do nothing (though North Junior clubs did vote at national level to join pyramid):
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/1744053/we-cant-offer-spots-in-the-highland-league-says-secretary-rod-houston/
HL had also met with North Caledonian - and what interested me is they voted unanimously in favour of feeders:
But all of his needn't be contradictory i.e. Make the NCL and the North Region Juniors (and the North of Tay Juniors from the East Region) Step 6 feeders. It is not necessary to insist on automatic promotion.
However, the option for promotion from these leagues should be there for clubs, if they want it. This would give these clubs the necessary certainty so that they could plan ahead with improvements over time in order to achieve the SFA Licence which is necessary for Step 5. These improvements are very great for many of these clubs so they need certainty.
Some might say that the SJFA has used this uncertainty factor to fight its corner/attempt to justify its' continued existence.
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Most of us have our heads buried in what goes on (or doesn't go on) in Scotland but if you look at other nations things seem to be light years ahead in terms of consultation with clubs, standards of facilities required for each level, financial assistance, and open-ness about what is required and the timescales available to get things in place. Ground sharing to reach a certain level is OK too.
Take the current re-structuring in Wales. The selection of clubs for their Tier 2 is underway and this is the latest taken from the FAW web site:
“8 May 2019
FAW Tier 2 First Instance Body Decision - 43 Clubs Successful
The FAW Tier 2 First Instance Body met today (8 May 2019) in Cardiff to consider the Tier 2 Certification Applications for the 2019/20 season.
The Panel assessed 47 applicants for the Tier 2 Certification and clubs were assessed against a number of infrastructure and personnel criteria.
FAW Tier 2 Certification is a mandatory requirement for clubs to participate at Tier 2 of the Welsh Football Pyramid for the 2019/20 season.
Following today’s meeting, the independent First Instance Body decided on the following:
FAW TIER 2 CERTIFIED CLUBS 2019/20
Huws Gray Alliance League (16):
- Airbus UK Broughton – promoted to JD Welsh Premier League
- Bangor City
- Buckley Town
- Conwy Borough
- Denbigh Town
- Flint Town United
- Gresford Athletic
- Guilsfield
- Holyhead Hotspur
- Holywell Town
- Llanrhaeader – certified at Llansantffraid FC
- Penrhyncoch
- Porthmadog
- Prestatyn Town
- Rhyl
- Ruthin Town
Welsh Football League – Division 1 (14):
- Afan Lido
- Ammanford Town
- Briton Ferry
- Cambrian & Clydach
- Cwmamman United
- Cwmbran Celtic
- Goytre United
- Haverfordwest County
- Llantwit Major
- Penybont – promoted to JD Welsh Premier League
- Pontypridd Town – certified at Aberdare Town FC
- Taffs Well
- Ton Pentre
- Undy Athletic
Welsh Alliance League (1):
- Llangefni Town
Welsh National League (2):
- Brickfield Rangers
- Corwen
Mid Wales League (3):
- Berriew
- Caersws
- Llanfair United
Welsh Football League – Division 2 (4):
- Caldicot Town
- Caerau Ely
- Pontardawe Town
- Swansea University
In addition, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and Llanelli Townall meet the FAW Tier 2 Certification Criteria which takes the total number of successful clubs to 43.
Of the remaining applications, the following clubs were not granted Tier 2 Certification for the 2019 / 20 season:
Welsh Football League – Division 1 (2):
- Goytre FC
- Port Talbot Town
Welsh Football League – Division 2 (4):
- Abergavenny Town
- Croesyceiliog
- Risca United
- STM Sports
Welsh National League (1):
- Brymbo
All clubs have the right of appeal, in accordance with FAW Rule 43.2.3.”
They are creating a new Tier 2 and will turn to Tier 3 in twelve months time. However, the clubs have known the requirements for Tiers 1, 2 and 3 for years. This isn't rocket science.
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Most of us have our heads buried in what goes on (or doesn't go on) in Scotland but if you look at other nations things seem to be light years ahead in terms of consultation with clubs, standards of facilities required for each level, financial assistance, and open-ness about what is required and the timescales available to get things in place. Ground sharing to reach a certain level is OK too.
Take the current re-structuring in Wales. The selection of clubs for their Tier 2 is underway and this is the latest taken from the FAW web site:
"8 May 2019
FAW Tier 2 First Instance Body Decision - 43 Clubs Successful
The FAW Tier 2 First Instance Body met today (8 May 2019) in Cardiff to consider the Tier 2 Certification Applications for the 2019/20 season.
The Panel assessed 47 applicants for the Tier 2 Certification and clubs were assessed against a number of infrastructure and personnel criteria.
FAW Tier 2 Certification is a mandatory requirement for clubs to participate at Tier 2 of the Welsh Football Pyramid for the 2019/20 season.
Following today’s meeting, the independent First Instance Body decided on the following:
FAW TIER 2 CERTIFIED CLUBS 2019/20
Huws Gray Alliance League (16):
- Airbus UK Broughton – promoted to JD Welsh Premier League
- Bangor City
- Buckley Town
- Conwy Borough
- Denbigh Town
- Flint Town United
- Gresford Athletic
- Guilsfield
- Holyhead Hotspur
- Holywell Town
- Llanrhaeader – certified at Llansantffraid FC
- Penrhyncoch
- Porthmadog
- Prestatyn Town
- Rhyl
- Ruthin Town
Welsh Football League – Division 1 (14):
- Afan Lido
- Ammanford Town
- Briton Ferry
- Cambrian & Clydach
- Cwmamman United
- Cwmbran Celtic
- Goytre United
- Haverfordwest County
- Llantwit Major
- Penybont – promoted to JD Welsh Premier League
- Pontypridd Town – certified at Aberdare Town FC
- Taffs Well
- Ton Pentre
- Undy Athletic
Welsh Alliance League (1):
- Llangefni Town
Welsh National League (2):
- Brickfield Rangers
- Corwen
Mid Wales League (3):
- Berriew
- Caersws
- Llanfair United
Welsh Football League – Division 2 (4):
- Caldicot Town
- Caerau Ely
- Pontardawe Town
- Swansea University
In addition, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and Llanelli Townall meet the FAW Tier 2 Certification Criteria which takes the total number of successful clubs to 43.
Of the remaining applications, the following clubs were not granted Tier 2 Certification for the 2019 / 20 season:
Welsh Football League – Division 1 (2):
- Goytre FC
- Port Talbot Town
Welsh Football League – Division 2 (4):
- Abergavenny Town
- Croesyceiliog
- Risca United
- STM Sports
Welsh National League (1):
- Brymbo
All clubs have the right of appeal, in accordance with FAW Rule 43.2.3."
They are creating a new Tier 2 and will turn to Tier 3 in twelve months time. However, the clubs have known the requirements for Tiers 1, 2 and 3 for years. This isn't rocket science.
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9 hours ago, leftbehind said:
Have all these clubs been knocked back because they don't have lights or are there other deficiencies in the applications and audit. just interested in case there could be a joint presentation to the Appeals Panel sharing costs. Any planning application needs approval from the Local Authority and major ones are scrutinised very carefully with usually several meetings between Officals/Architects/Agents to iron out any envisaged problems ie the route of a 3 phase power cable and the likes. But all surmountable but it takes time because there are dozens of Applications up at each scheduled meeting. a major housebuilding project will get attention first before our floodlights application so it goes on and on.
This is exactly why the approach used by the SFA is faulty. It takes resources i.e. including human, services in place, materials, planning, funds, etc etc to comply with any Licence criteria. Therefore any material changes must be brought in with appropriate and due consideration i.e. there must be a reasonable timetable before material changes to criteria are brought in. Certainly not less than 12 months and certainly NOT to take effect in mid season as this affects, directly, promotion and relegation.
It also seems likely to leave the SFA open to appropriate action against it, with the potential for significant costs which it, seemingly, would have to find from within its' existing budget. Which Peter would they rob in order to pay Paul? It has to come from somewhere if there is a significant legal challenge. That in turn would hurt those whose budgets are, consequently, reduced/removed over-night.
This is dead simple! First amend club licencing to good practices. Second avoid wasting good money. Third avoid offending clubs who are becoming your new masters (as more become licenced). Four get a decent management on board which complies with the SFA's own rules, regulations, constitution, etc' Five amend the rules, regulations and constitution so this debacle does not happen again.
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Sadly, it appears that the likes of the SFA has a tendency to act out of a lack of knowledge/understanding of the SFA rules, regulations, constitution etc let alone the Laws of the Land.
Would it be a huge surprise if the SFA was taken to the cleaners over their perceived mis-handling of club licencing?
Altering the criteria for club licencing has to be done in a reasonable manner e.g. providing all clubs in Scotland with the same information about club licencing at the same time (in case they wish to apply) and then to provide clubs which have ALREADY made an application to opportunity to gain a licence upon the terms and conditions which were in place at the time of the application (unless they have been excessively slow getting necessary works carried out).
Otherwise it is surely a breach of contract? Any-one can breach a contract or fail to fulfil a contract but this risks being dragged through the legal system. Can the SFA really afford to take such a risk?
If you check what other nations do you will see that they give clubs reasonable notice of changes to the Licencing criteria and they do NOT make those changes at short notice (December for the 1st January) and to take effect during the course of the current season.
Again, sadly, it appears that the likes of the SFA has a tendency to act out of a lack of knowledge/understanding of the SFA rules, regulations, constitution etc let alone the Laws of the Land. This is a very hazardous way to operate. Wouldn't any Chief Exec/President etc of any reputable organisation make sure that such blatantly obvious pit-falls were avoided? Who would employ one who didn't do that?
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3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Licensing runs by the calendar year and not by the football season. Most of the time this is actually beneficial. Clubs audited late in the calendar year will basically end up with 18 months notice. Audited Aug 2018, Changes Jan 2019, Audited Aug 2019 season's already started so get a derogation until May/June 2020.
Check out what happens in other Nations. Change the rules in January in preparation for the next season - Yes - as this gives some advance warning of changes.
Just because it has been done this way so far doesn't make it sensible, practical or in line with good practice.
Ponder the investments made by so many clubs to make a current season dead-line and then argue for the status quo?
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With regard to your point about matters having been very badly handled by the SFA. There is also the matter of changing the Licence criteria in mid season.
If the Lowland League was reprimanded for attempting to change its' Rules in mid season as this would affect promotion and relegation -even though it was an attempt by the Lowland League to correct a generally accepted fault - then how come the SFA thinks that it is remotely reasonable for it to change Licencing rules in mid season when this obviously directly affects promotion and relegation matters in the Lowland League and the EoS?
What's sauce for the goose etc.
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7 minutes ago, Spyro said:
It could work. Basically ask the EoSFL to create and run a new WoS League, rubbing alongside their own EoSFL...
The EoSFL have proven they run a very good, strong league with the respect of all members (it’s the SFA that are f**king things up). Obviously with a lot of input for the teams from the west, there’s no reason why grown men can’t work it out between them
I am sure that there are many capable people at WRJFA clubs who could take on the running of a WoS within the EoS (for one season only). There are people already in position at the WRJFA who are competent e.g. Fixtures.
There's no need for the EoS to be particularly "hands on" - just be there to help as and when needed, if needed!
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About a year ago the SJFA clubs showed, via a vote, that the majority were in favour of joining the Pyramid. At the time TJ was quoted (Email copied onto P&B) as admitting that he did not anticipate the amount of interest which was shown. In effect he was out of touch with the opinions of "his" own clubs.
Since then it seems that there has been a concerted effort to make sure that the SJFA Regions were retained under the control of that organisation. This could, of course, help to keep someone in a job and others in positions of relative prestige i.e. in the SJFA. Part of this meant that there was a blatant campaign of Blagging their way into a position of power over all non-league semi-pro clubs. The wheels have just come off that. Hopefully there will be appropriate consequences.
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2 hours ago, patriot1 said:
Does the "manageable" 64 clubs at tier 6 include the Highland League. If so that means there is no room for the ERSJFA superleague. The EOS, SOS, WOS and HL would make the 64.
Presumably it is EoS, SoS, WoS and NoS. The latter two being present SJFA Regions except for the north of Tay Bridge Juniors being brought into the Lowland League zone via the EoS?
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2 hours ago, superbigal said:
Certainly means the PWG was a complete waste of time.
Ironically, all of what's happened may have cleared the air at club level, paving the way for rapid progress from now on. Here's hoping so anyway.
However, the individual SJFA Regions must stand up and show that they are up to running their own leagues and accept that it is for them to negotiate their own way forward.
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23 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:
"Done deal".
Some things require more than nods, winks and handshakes thankfully.
Perhaps, if some, allegedly Junior, trolls come up with something accurate in the future they won't be believed. Oh Dear!
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Apparently this time last year there were unsuccessful enquiries about membership from St Bernards and Musselburgh Windsor. This time there has been Syngenta and Glenrothes Strollers. There may be new clubs in the ERJFA e.g. at Linlithgow and Bo'ness plus perhaps Breadalbane and Dunblane(?)
Maybe the EoS should consider a Development Division for aspiring clubs - so that such clubs can work on up-grading whatever needs fixing with a view to moving up to the EoS proper. It could be a natural stepping stone for progressive clubs e.g. from the long list of SFA Quality Mark Juveniles and the Amateur leagues. This could, more or less, sit alongside the Lowland Under 20's Leagues.
Are there other clubs out there which may be good candidates for a future EoS place i.e. in addition to current ERJFA clubs which, hopefully, will find a peaceful way to merge with the EoS, in due course?
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38 minutes ago, Dev said:
If correct, and who knows unless there is a public statement from a club, then I would look at those south of Tay Bridge Juniors, which are taking a long term view, and have youth teams or plans for an Under 20's team in the next season. Are there any? Which ones would they be?
These clubs were all SFA Quality Mark clubs:
Armadale Community Football Club, Bathgate Thistle CFC, Kennoway Star Hearts JFC, Kinnoull JFC, Kirkcaldy CFC, Livingston CFC, Newburgh FC, Pumpherston United, Rosyth FC, Scone Thistle, Tayport FC, Thornton Hibs FC and Whitburn FCA.
Also, I recall that a Lochore Welfare poster was asking about the Under 20’s a while ago.
Perhaps this might be part of the motivation if a current ERJFA club makes a move?
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2 hours ago, Rooster20 said:
Normally a lurker on this website but thought I'd pass on that I heard from a mate yesterday and apparently an SJFA east region club is leaning towards a late application to join the EoS.
If correct, and who knows unless there is a public statement from a club, then I would look at those south of Tay Bridge Juniors, which are taking a long term view, and have youth teams or plans for an Under 20's team in the next season. Are there any? Which ones would they be?
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1 hour ago, gogsy said:
So SJFA keeps in business by organising discipline for 47 west 21 east and 30 odd North teams, lol easier for the regions to do their own below tier 6.
This will, presumably reduce the income to the SJFA? Fines going to the SFA from the top divisions of the existing SJFA leagues?
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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Who knows you'd be looking at something like this based on current standings:
Someone on the NLM web site has posted that a Dunblane team has applied to the Juniors, playing out of Sauchie's ground.
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39 minutes ago, fatbadger442 said:
Anybody can wander around Peebles Rovers' Whitestone Park - it's in the middle of a public park, and is not separated off by a fence. I was there just last week, and quite a few dog walkers stopped by for five minutes and then continued on their walk. At another point, some cyclists came along the river oath, saw that there was a batch on, and came over to gave a look for a few minutes. There was a trestle table on one of the paths leading into the park with someone collecting entrance fees, but most of the 150 or so in attendance came into the park via the main gates - not where the trestle table was - and just walked over to the pitch without paying to get in.
There's no way that Glenrothes Strollers' ground is more open that.
Maybe because some clubs with open grounds were already members of the EoS that they have dispensation. Certainly some have done lots of work in the last year or two. Similarly any clubs with open grounds etc which currently play in the East Region Juniors would, presumably, be entitled to the same favoured treatment? It would be a bit tough on other clubs wanting to join the EoS but, if they contacted the EoS and prepared plans etc for up-grades to their grounds, perhaps they would up-grade in order to be acceptable at a later date. At least, if they checked with the EoS they would receive comments/advice re what is required.
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7 minutes ago, stanley said:
He's just trolling. The new tactic, given the lack of clarity over structure in the juniors currently, is to deflect by claiming there is confusion over the EoS structure. The reality is it has been clear from the start. 16 team EoS Premier formed based on league positions with first division formed by rest of the clubs.
The apparent stalling tactics of the SJFA/TJ (?) have been exposed for what they are so this makes it tougher for mud-slinging to continue to have any effect whatsoever. Oh Dear!
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10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:
Ian Maxwell or Rod Petrie is reported to have said they could choose between the HL or LL, if they were to get into the playoff and won it.
However, they will have no excuses for thinking that this even possible under current SFA rules/constitution.
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1 hour ago, Ped said:
The SFA should now decide we have gave the juniors enough time to be involved in the pyramid over the years should just set up a West league invite applications tell rest of clubs who don’t want to be involved this is last chance leave the clubs no longer interested in a closed shop organisation and remove the carrot of Scottish entry for there league or cup winners and let them get on with there mini leagues
Now that the picture is becoming clearer about apparent stalling tactics at SJFA/TJ level (?) it may be easier for progressive West Juniors and south of Tay Bridge ERJFA clubs to bite the bullet and make their moves. In the east delay seems likely to lead to entry at a lower level i.e. Tier 8 rather than the current Tier 7 which is on offer. No-one who has made the switch last summer has any regrets about doing so.
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Junior football, what is the future?
in Junior Football
Posted
From the Pyramid 2019/20 topic in the EoS Section but relevant to the Juniors:
“ijfife
Way Forward
Stop “pyramid” discussions with SJFA. Agree to amicably continue as separate organisations.
The Lowland League to have two feeder leagues, EOS and WOS.
Increase number of teams in Lowland League to 18. Top teams in EOS and WOS automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in Lowland League automatically relegated. Third bottom team in Lowland League plays off against second top teams in EOS and WOS.
Postpone floodlight requirement for Lowland League for two years, by which time any team in Lowland League without floodlights will be relegated and any team wishing to be promoted to Lowland League will require floodlights.
Increase number of teams in League 2 to 12 with similar split arrangement to Scottish Premier League. Top teams in Lowland League and Highland League automatically promoted. Bottom two teams in League 2 automatically relegated. Third bottom team in League 2 plays off against second top teams in Lowland League and Highland League.
Any ERSJFA teams wishing to join the EOS league system will enter at the bottom tier. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS FOR 2018-19, could be considered for leagues below EOS league.
Any WRSJFA teams wishing to join the WOS league would join the league directly, similar to Kelty Hearts in the East of Scotland League in season 2017-18. If number joining was sufficiently high, a one season conference set-up, similar to the EOS for 2018-19, could be considered.
If sufficient Highland Junior League teams interested in joining the pyramid, create a feeder league for Highland League. For promotion to Highland League, floodlights would be required.
All current ERSJFA teams eligible to join EOS leagues (forget the Tay divide). Depending on numbers, leagues below EOS could be regionally split e.g north and south of the Forth.
Only teams that are part of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league to be eligible for Scottish Cup entry.
Create a SFA Trophy competition open to members of the Highland League, EOS leagues and WOS league. Scottish Amatuer Cup winners could be invited to participate in this competition.
Teams can elect not to be promoted to Lowland League. In time, the floodlights requirement is likely to rule out weaker teams.”
AND
“Jambo'ness
I agree with much of what you propose. However, there will be the usual 'ah but' brigade to pour oil on what could be smooth waters.
If we take stock, the 'way forward' has already started but was never going to be an easy ride. The SFA have ensured that and the SJFA have been happy to hide behind them.
What has happened to Bonnyrigg this season is a disgrace but it won't happen again. There is an irresistible force of clubs looking to progress and they will overcome the barriers put up by the SFA. It really is just a matter of time. “
My Thoughts:
“There is much merit to what ijfife writes.
Don't forget that the "SJFA hiding behind the SFA" started last summer after the majority of Junior clubs showed that they were up for the Pyramid and TJ admitted that he had been surprised by this. Since then there has been the SFA "moratorium" on Membership/Licencing applications, etc. This is not simply a co-incidence, as TJ is a member of staff at the SFA and would have known all about this - but said nothing about it himself to the Juniors/ex Juniors last summer! Co-incidence that nothing much has moved forward re the Pyramid ever since? “