Detournement

Under the arrangements of the GC we wouldn't be in control of our own destiny though. We would be in thrall to the BoE and the bond markets.

He was obviously put on the payroll of whoever funds Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Because the amounts are irrelevant. What is important is the ability to refinance at cheap rates (preferably zero). The growth commission plan means an independent Scotland couldn't do that and would tie the hands of any elected government to change course.

The UK government is constantly issuing 2,5,10 and 30 year bonds. So for example the 10 year bonds issued in 2008 will be paid off this year. The UK government can always print more money so the interest rates are low. The bond market doesn't care if the total debt ever goes down only if the particular bond they are buying is paid off. There is zero chance of the UK defaulting while it is in control of it's own currency. However if Scotland was independent and piggybacking on the pound we would have the same issues as Greece and Italy where borrowing rates increase as we couldn't print money. We could also expect the BoE to be even less helpful to an independent Scotland than the ECB has been to Greece to Italy. The entire system is a scam. There is no reason why the UK government should have to borrow from bond markets other than to make profits for the bondholders. Last year Labour proposed a state owned investment bank which would lend money to the government at 0% for public investment. This is a step towards fiscal sanity. The growth commission report is a step towards pauperism.

Debt repayments to the uk? You have no idea what Scotlands debt would be after indy? We are literally liable for none of it. The uk aint paying off its debt anytime soon and neither is Scotland. Tell that to Nicola Sturgeon and Andrew Wilson. The Growth Commission suggests an independent Scotland paying £5 billion a year to rUK out of general government expenditure. And FYI the UK is constantly paying off debt and taking on more debt. Under the fiscal system proposed by the GC we would be paying off debt but limited in how much more we can take on and subject to higher interest rates.

I don't understand what you mean with the too wee, too stupid comment? Ireland's GDP is inflated by their choice to be a tax shelter for American corporations in the EU. Irish GDP increased by 26% in 2015 because they were forced to include the activity of companies head quartered there. For example Facebook paid 30 Million Euro tax on 12 Billion Euro income. There are thousands of American companies doing the same thing. This is not an economic model that Scotland can or should want to follow and the EU commission is already in the process of cracking down on it.

The benefits of money laundering... How much of the that GDP is US corporate profits being taxed at 1%?

France's Q1 growth was revised downwards to 0.2% so not so different from the UK. The primary problem isn't Brexit it's a broken economic model which has been artificially propped up by QE and low interest rates for a decade. Keep your eyes open for the 15 second news bulletin later where the BBC mention that plans to unwind QE have been temporarily delayed.....

Upland sheep farming is a complete waste of time and only exists to draw subsidies for Tory land owners. There has to be a distinction between grassy hills and genuine arable land.

How much farming in Scotland is sticking some sheep on a hill and sucking up subsidy? That can go anytime. Good farming ground that produces food won't be rezoned as anything else so there's not much option other than farm on it or sell to someone who will.

There is zero chance of farmers losing their jobs. Gove has already confirmed that subsidies will continue until 2022 and the media focused on his announcements about wild flowers and hedges rather than the transfer of billiions of pounds to landowners. What is more likely to happen is that market forces are applied and the land owners (and fishing boat owners) are pushed out by multinational corporations. As much as farmers are c***s no government should follow a policy which results in domestic food production being cut.

She's a hypocritical toad but I would say it's probably better to go for a referendum than direct rule.

It's screengrabbed on the tax research link I put up. It's worth reading. I don't think you have to be an economist to follow his arguments or to indeed to gain a general understanding of how capitalism functions in this period of financialization. In fact if you can recognise that taxation is funded by government spending then you know more about economics than the author of this report!

I don't think you have any understanding of economics. Ben Wray's twitter thread on that link I provided clearly explains the inevitable consequences of the GC's plans. If you disagree then explain why Scotland will do better than Italy being completely reliant on the bond markets for investment? Explain where the growth comes from after a decade of austerity without employing significant fiscal expansion?

Those are just truisms though. The sort of bland shit you would hear from every politician looking to win votes. The actual detail in the report points in a completely different direction.

Have a read of this Baxter http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/05/30/sterlingisation-would-be-a-disaster-for-scotland/ It probably won't make any difference because you exhibit the winning traits of a rabid nationalist who greatly enjoys tribalism.

Or Sturgeon is a dull centrist who has no problem with austerity as long it's legislated in Scotland. And it is her who is ignoring the substance of the report eg limiting the deficit to 3% within 5-10 years. The "attainable prize" is a delusion the 21st century, every other small country they reference developed in entirely different economic conditions. She doesn't address where the investment is to come from, ignores that debt/GDP is to be limited and that debt repayments to rUK are to come out of general spending. Fiscal expansion under these conditions is impossible. We only have to look to Italy to see what this version of economics results in. We would actually be in worse position than Italy as we would be just as dependent on the bond markets but with zero central bank support.

We sell the good North Sea fish abroad and buy in cheap Asian farmed fish.

I think there already is a large middle class/centrist plank supporting independence largely made up of public sector/third sector workers. The danger for the SNP is surely that left wingers return to Labour which will make getting a second referendum nearly impossible after this parliament.

I think this is why I feel alienated from a lot of the arguments about independence. Unless you are going to use independence to address the issues that actually matter what's the point? Too many people are insulated within the tribalism of the debate and think that this debate itself protects Scotland from the dangers of automation, climate change, austerity etc. We have been stuck in stasis since 2014 while in the USA, in England and on the continent new critiques are emerging and solutions are being put forward. The problem is clearly that the SNP can't combine being a party of government with being a party of radicalism which wants to break up the UK. The independence movement will only succeed when it moves beyond the SNP.

"ring fenced retail entities operating in Scotland" Which would surely see the majority of financial services f**k off to London (or Frankfurt or Paris or Dublin). I agree with the Commonweal assessment, there is no reason why a currency can't be set up to kick in after a transition period. Applying MMT principles will probably see us being invaded by NATO but it's worth a go anway. Another part of the document that I find absurd is the desire to expand the work force. Automation hasn't really kicked in yet we are already overwhelmed by completely pointless, unproductive non jobs. The focus going forward has to be a reduction in unproductive work and an emphasis on increasing the rewards of socially essential jobs.

The Italian President has invited an IMF apparatchik to form a government. European elites seem determined to create crisis after crisis for no reason other than keeping the banks happy.

The Sun are not pro Indy. They support the SNP up here to hurt Labour on a UK level. All Murdoch output whether it be Fox News, the Times, Sunday Times or regional varities of the Sun are designed to produce the same outcome.

The document talks about selling off government assets, budget reviews and fiscal discipline. These are all for euphemisms for austerity. The document talks about "independent" agencies who will make the forecasts which the Scottish government will have to act within. No prizes for guessing which section of Scottish society will dominate these independent agencies. The same agencies will decide if/when we can create our own currency. The comparison to Greece is clear. It is the imposition of long term austerity for the benefit of the financial sector with no monetary levers to provide flexibility and being subject to the whims of a central bank with zero consideration for the well being of your population. It is obviously the case that we could gain independence and then tell Blairite SNPers to get to f**k and vote in a forward thinking government. The issue here is less the economy of an independent Scotland than the SNP's bizarre decision to narrow their arguments for an independent Scotland to an economic ideology that died ten years ago. If the SNP have to defend this report it makes it impossible for them to build any positive case for independence.

Markets are gods in the 21st century. This is only going to lead to more anti EU feeling in Italy and sadly push more people towards Five Star and the Lega.