Law Stud

Perhaps it says more about you than anything else, that you needed the taxpayer to fund your attempts at making friends, playing sports, and getting involved in "societies". Most of us manage to do that off our own backs...

I suppose you had a momentary lapse earlier in the week then when you first claimed I was out of my depth, then claimed that it was a fantastic point all within two posts.

That's the attitude. A future MP in the making....

Oh dear...once again so failed by our education system. Look, as a Pipefitter if I want some digging done, I'll call in the guys with the diggers and if I want entertainment I'll go to a lap dancing club where some of the prettier students can dance for me...

Yep....that's becoming increasingly evident.

So let me get this straight - you currently are earning less than the UK National Average of £26,000?

A DVD player would be better...

Congratulations....is it at Comet?

Oh dear - you and 200,000 others fighting over around 100,000 jobs. Last years average wage in your sector dropped from £24,000pa to £23,750. At those kind of rates the taxpayer will struggle to recoup your student loan fees never mind anything else.

Oh dear....I learned not to under estimate anyone on my first day on the job. I would have thought that lesson would have been part of any worthwhile university course...

Ach its ok Gaz, I must have mixed you up with someone who said something remotely interesting once. Sorry. I edited my original post after I thought further about it. Hope it helps

Do you not work in a tax office? Wouldn't Arithmetic be suffice for your chosen occupation? After all you aren't going to need to know the pythagorus theorem when calculating what 22% of annual salary minus allowances works out at... Actually Gaz, I've just thought about it. I reckon it's a 1. I can't see what use a Maths degree will be to any graduate when they are working in a call centre...

I'm just adding balance, warning poor young impressionable children that they are wasting a huge part of their lives. There is time yet to save them.

Marketing and Business Studies would be worthwhile if the people running the course were successes in marketing and business themselves - however the fact is that if they were they would be fucking about on a lecturers wage earning £27,000 pa. Interestingly my Sister In Law works in marketing....she's not got a degree yet her employer trusts her with many £multi million accounts and she appears to be doing reasonably well for herself. I've got a feeling you are wasting taxpayers money...

Not at all Dunning. Call Centres are the usual dumping ground for graduates...

Good for you....remember to let me know when that finally happens...

1. Yes they do. I didn't need to look beyond Google for proof of that one. Try it. The first page showed four jobs listings showing higher earnings than the top rate for teachers. 2. Nonsense. Many companies are paying well in advance of that for apprentices. Ofcourse it depends on the contract and location as to what you are working but I was earning more than £24k per annum as a fourth year apprentice Pipefitter in 1990. 3. "Slightly more believable" - it's a hell of a lot more believable than claims that being one of 430,000 graduates will guide you into a job with great salaries, or that a tradesman who's skill is in demand is going to have a lower level salary peak than - for example - a graduate software developer... The apprentice is a welder. Anything else?

Fraser - you'll need to do better than that son if you want to impress me with your financial common sense. The economy of the whole of the UK would be far better off if we weren't pissing £161bn against a failing education system. Just think what each family of four could do with the extra £12,000 per year in their pocket.

And significantly many graduates are retraining to become bricklayers and plumbers and it's having little effect on the skills shortage.

Well it looks like plumbers are going to be earning big money for years to come....either that or a hell of a lot of students are going to graduate and then retrain to become plumbers.

It also highlights that coal miners, train drivers, police officers and dancers command higher earnings than architects, teachers, biochemists and vets. It clearly indicates that there as many professions out there where you can earn more without the need for a degree than you will do having obtained a degree. It pretty clearly debunks the argument that you need a degree to make loads of money.

Savo, I provided the source in my post. Teachers earn less than train drivers. Coal Miners earn more than Biochemists, and dancers earn more than dentists. It's all in that article - just have a read. I'd be interested to find out if it is the education industry that is telling kids they need a degree to earn more money and I'd be interested to find out why someone who is usually a rational thinking, like yourself, would blindly believe that information despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Think about it Savo, 430,000 students in the system in 2008/9. If all of them graduate with degree's where do you think the jobs are that will mean they all get above average earnings? You don't tell me what line of work it is you are entering into but £23,000 is well below the UK national average earnings figure, and if that's the best you could command after 3 years at university I think it's a sound indicator that degree's are not the holy grail you have been led to believe. No, but by the same token I would refuse to fund such an obvious waste of money.

This Is Money - League Table shows a table of average earnings in 2008. Directors and company owners are obviously well paid, but if you look at the table an Electrical Engineer (who doesn't need a degree) earns more that your average Accountant (who does). Teachers, who need a degree, earn up to £16,000 per annum less than Train Drivers - who don't. A Sales Rep - who doesn't need a degree - earns more than a Science Researcher - who does. There are many, many, many more examples. According to various Scotland Rich lists the richest man in Scotland today is Jim McColl, a former apprentice at Weir Pumps. Sir Arnold Clark didn't go to University. And Sir Tom Farmer didn't even finish secondary school. At £23,000 you are some £2,000 short of the National Average Scottish wage and a long, long way short of making a larger contribution to the country either in tax, or skills, than many of your contemporaries who have gone into trades.

Do you really think so Savo? In my drawer at work I've got a pile of CV's from people applying for jobs in here. I'm looking at the top three in the bundle which aren't in any order. 3rd year Improver currently working as an apprentice lift engineer - earning £29,000 per annum, aged 22. 3rd year apprentice currently at a construction company on a sponsored apprenticeship - earning £24,000 with a company car, aged 19. 4th year HVAC controls apprentice, aged 20, earning £29,000 and gets a car lease allowance. The lift engineer dropped out of Uni, the other two started work straight from school. All three of them are working in area's where the UK has a large skills shortage. They'll be paying more tax than you, and they'll probably have more desirable skills than you but they don't have the same bit of paper. University isn't the only option open to school leavers, but for some reason it's being touted as the only option. Sadly most of those students are being led down the wrong path.

But ultimately you have to close universities too. Look, lets say I run a hotel with 200 rooms. I know I have staff and facilities to comfortably cope with 100 room occupancy but it's a business and I want as much money as possible, so I'll keep filling the rooms even though it will mean the standard of service deminishes for each person staying at the hotel. Same is true of universities. If you have one that has a capacity of 2,000 they are going to want to fill it so they can get their maximum endowment from the state. Have 200 universities all with a capacity of 2,000 and you've got all of them wanting to fill it to maximise their endowment. That's where we are right now. 430,000 students - all of whom aren't getting the education they need because everywhere is running to capacity to maximise their earnings. And at the end of the day the taxpayer is getting a really poor product for it's £161bn per annum. Ofcourse you are right - do away with the pointless degree's and we start to improve things, but it doesn't really get better until we cut student places right down, lose the worst of the lecturers, and close the poorest performing universities. What we are then left with should be centres of excellence, well funded, well equipped and with big wages that might attract successful people from industry instead of the also rans, to run the courses.