Livingston - all the threads merged

[Skyline Drifter]

To be fair, the SFL have their moments of brutality like when they docked Hamilton 15 points which relegated them to the Third Division. They also took a fairly strong line with the Gretna administrator last year, effectively forcing them to resign.

Much would depend, no doubt, on the composition of the Management Committee and the vested interests that apply.

It should be interesting to see how it unfolds over the next few weeks, especially when they find out that certain players still haven't been paid for April. Then there's the mystery surrounding Hegarty and Robertson.

Without especially wanting to direct the thread off topic, I'd like to again point out (as I do every time someone claims that) that Hamilton were not relegated directly as a result of the 15 point deduction and in fact the whole reason they got 15 points and not 3, 9, or 25 was precisely to place them bottom of the table but with their fate still in their own hands. It's why the SFL did what they did. Had Accies won all three remaining games after the deduction they WOULD have stayed up. So yes, the 15 points caused their relegation (and saved us) but no, they didn't directly relegate them.

That may well have been what you meant but I thought I'd just clarify.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Skyline Drifter

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Without especially wanting to direct the thread off topic, I'd like to again point out (as I do every time someone claims that) that Hamilton were not relegated directly as a result of the 15 point deduction and in fact the whole reason they got 15 points and not 3, 9, or 25 was precisely to place them bottom of the table but with their fate still in their own hands. It's why the SFL did what they did. Had Accies won all three remaining games after the deduction they WOULD have stayed up. So yes, the 15 points caused their relegation (and saved us) but no, they didn't directly relegate them.

That may well have been what you meant but I thought I'd just clarify.

I'd forgotten about that Hamilton punishment. I do vaguely remember thinking it was pretty harsh at the time.

What did they get it for? Wasn't it for failing to fulfil a fixture or something?

[banjo player]

I'd forgotten about that Hamilton punishment. I do vaguely remember thinking it was pretty harsh at the time.

What did they get it for? Wasn't it for failing to fulfil a fixture or something?

A player's strike when they were homeless. They were due to play some other crap team and refused and ended up in the third division. (A basic summary - apologies to the other crap team if it was actually someone good)

[LLD]

Without especially wanting to direct the thread off topic, I'd like to again point out (as I do every time someone claims that) that Hamilton were not relegated directly as a result of the 15 point deduction and in fact the whole reason they got 15 points and not 3, 9, or 25 was precisely to place them bottom of the table but with their fate still in their own hands. It's why the SFL did what they did. Had Accies won all three remaining games after the deduction they WOULD have stayed up. So yes, the 15 points caused their relegation (and saved us) but no, they didn't directly relegate them.

That may well have been what you meant but I thought I'd just clarify.

Erm... did I actually say it directly relegated them?

[jimbo]

The SFL's AGM is happened at the moment. Maybe they'll take action after today?

Short of expulsion I will be happy to take any punishment the SFL hands out as long as means we get rid of Massone.

The man is no more than an embarrassment to my club.

[Guest]

Short of expulsion I will be happy to take any punishment the SFL hands out as long as means we get rid of Massone.

The man is no more than an embarrassment to my club.

Well I guess there's little that comment on here will achieve in terms of offering up an alternative view to what is happening at Livvy beyond the mantra of "he is a good guy who has made mistakes but has been pumping his own money into the club, and wants what is best for us". That a significant chunk of the starry eyed support seem mind numbingly incapable of joining the up the dots that tell them (with a fair degree of certainty) what is going on, then the club is almost at the tipping point where things will be beyond recovery.

Doubtless when it falls like a pack of cards, Masone's apologists will try to head to some sort of moral high ground where it is the non believers who have killed the club by with holding much needed revenue.

I see one punter saying it is the supporters "duty" to by a season ticket right now. What sanctimonious bollox that is.

Y'see, delusional thinking like this little gem shows how far away they are from accepting reality of the situation. This little quote shows the not uncommon "oh we have limited cash" acceptance, but simply doesn't accept the ramifications of the situation.........

QUOTE Being realistic we will probably be fielding the U19's with a couple of older (hopefully experienced heads)players.

We may have to endure finishing mid table for a couple of seasons while building a Team to challenge for promotion (not saying U19's could not do it) UNQUOTE

This chap sees finishing mid table in the first division as the downside of their current situation....... he just doesn't get it.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Guest

[qpsnapper]

A player's strike when they were homeless. They were due to play some other crap team and refused and ended up in the third division. (A basic summary - apologies to the other crap team if it was actually someone good)

I think Hamilton were due to play at Stenhousemuir when they went on strike.

Edited May 29, 2009 by qpsnapper

[ObserverFromAfar]

The Herald is leading the charge on the May month-end players' wages story..

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/football/..._assurances.php

Of course, there still remains the non-playing staff - hopefully they have been paid and no issues remain.

Even with a gap between what the players' contracts contain (last Thursday of the month), what Massone is said to have verbally advised the players (last day of the month), the players will need to be paid by tomorrow to prevent the SFL being obliged to look at the situation - e.g. ask for more verbal assurances, deduct a few points - say 10 points knocked off to the 08/09 season tally - resulting in LIvingston assuming 10th place and the automatic relgation spot, and the playoff history being rewritten, disputed etc.

So if action is taken and to ensure lack of chaos, if the SFL were to opt for a straight relegation and replacement with another team in Divsion 1, it would be an easier punishment to apply than a points reduction for 08/09?

Edited May 29, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[Skyline Drifter]

Erm... did I actually say it directly relegated them?

I thought it certainly implied it and that most people would read it that way even if it's not what you actually meant. The last sentence of my previous post already acknowledged it may not actually have been what you meant.

[LLD]

The Herald is leading the charge on the May month-end players' wages story..

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/football/..._assurances.php

Of course, there still remains the non-playing staff - hopefully they have been paid and no issues remain.

Even with a gap between what the players' contracts contain (last Thursday of the month), what Massone is said to have verbally advised the players (last day of the month), the players will need to be paid by tomorrow to prevent the SFL being obliged to look at the situation - e.g. ask for more verbal assurances, deduct a few points - say 10 points knocked off to the 08/09 season tally - resulting in LIvingston assuming 10th place and the automatic relgation spot, and the playoff history being rewritten, disputed etc.

So if action is taken and to ensure lack of chaos, if the SFL were to opt for a straight relegation and replacement with another team in Divsion 1, it would be an easier punishment to apply than a points reduction for 08/09?

The non-playing staff haven't been paid either according to what I have been told and going by previous months they won't be settled up until after the players have been sorted out.

I don't see either of those things happening until Griffiths is sold.

I've thought quite hard about what penalties could be bestowed by the SFL and I would expect relegation to be the most severe one they would contemplate. I think it theory we could be expelled but I don't think the SFL is in the business of deliberately losing clubs when there are others on the brink and very few alternatives out there.

From my point of view I think relegation to the Third Division could be the best solution in the long run for Livingston, although it would be seen as draconian.

As a Third Division club we would be able to start again from scratch and do things in the right way. It's a phrase with unfortunate connotations, but the club could effectively go back to Year Zero.

Unlike some other posters on here, I would suggest that the Livi fanbase isn't quite as poor as people make out in terms of numbers. If run correctly there's no reason why we couldn't be an established First Division club.

What there is at the moment is a loss of pride in LFC in the local area which needs to be repaired. It would take a while but in my view starting back at the bottom would give the club time and space to do it.

[Guest]

The Herald is leading the charge on the May month-end players' wages story..

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/football/..._assurances.php

Of course, there still remains the non-playing staff - hopefully they have been paid and no issues remain.

Even with a gap between what the players' contracts contain (last Thursday of the month), what Massone is said to have verbally advised the players (last day of the month), the players will need to be paid by tomorrow to prevent the SFL being obliged to look at the situation - e.g. ask for more verbal assurances, deduct a few points - say 10 points knocked off to the 08/09 season tally - resulting in LIvingston assuming 10th place and the automatic relgation spot, and the playoff history being rewritten, disputed etc.

So if action is taken and to ensure lack of chaos, if the SFL were to opt for a straight relegation and replacement with another team in Divsion 1, it would be an easier punishment to apply than a points reduction for 08/09?

He will only have been paying saleable players. Straight relegation would seem to be an appropriate punishment. Certainly something needs to be done. The LL site continues to stun and amaze with one gadgy claiming Massone has been pumping money in or how else would they survive (it's called debt building mate) and that he is merely running the club in a "ruthless business manner". That must be a new spin on "an unethical and unacceptable manner".

This is what he needed season ticket money to achieve (wage payments). He probably has nothing like enough to cover what's needed. Maybe things are finally coming to a head.

If Airdrie have been acting in a fiscally responsible money and Livingston have broken the promises made a few short weeks ago, then the two clubs need to swap places immediately. Late payments next month should then trigger a 10 point penalty for next season. This club needs to get the message, and they need to get it now.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

The non-playing staff haven't been paid either according to what I have been told and going by previous months they won't be settled up until after the players have been sorted out.

I don't see either of those things happening until Griffiths is sold.

I've thought quite hard about what penalties could be bestowed by the SFL and I would expect relegation to be the most severe one they would contemplate. I think it theory we could be expelled but I don't think the SFL is in the business of deliberately losing clubs when there are others on the brink and very few alternatives out there.

From my point of view I think relegation to the Third Division could be the best solution in the long run for Livingston, although it would be seen as draconian.

As a Third Division club we would be able to start again from scratch and do things in the right way. It's a phrase with unfortunate connotations, but the club could effectively go back to Year Zero.

Unlike some other posters on here, I would suggest that the Livi fanbase isn't quite as poor as people make out in terms of numbers. If run correctly there's no reason why we couldn't be an established First Division club.

What there is at the moment is a loss of pride in LFC in the local area which needs to be repaired. It would take a while but in my view starting back at the bottom would give the club time and space to do it.

Provided your club pays 100% of what it owes. Albeit through a third party, you still have backroom staff unpaid since March.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Guest

[LLD]

Provided your club pays 100% of what it owes. Albeit through a third party, you still have backroom staff unpaid since March.

In an ideal world yes.

Being pragmatic, however, if it's a choice between no club at all and coming to an agreement to restructure the debt then I am afraid I would choose the latter.

[Aufc]

Armand one does not care about livingstons financial problems as he suns himself off the coast of spain.

[Guest]

In an ideal world yes.

Being pragmatic, however, if it's a choice between no club at all and coming to an agreement to restructure the debt then I am afraid I would choose the latter.

Then that should lead to demotion to the third division, with something put in place that should this club (or any transformation of this club by name change) fall into administration for a third time (and in terms of non payment of debt, a fourth time), then immediate expulsion from the league shall be the penalty. In terms of disreputable behaviour, Livvy are standing head and shoulders above anyone else in the country, and it needs to stop.

[LLD]

Then that should lead to demotion to the third division, with something put in place that should this club (or any transformation of this club by name change) fall into administration for a third time (and in terms of non payment of debt, a fourth time), then immediate expulsion from the league shall be the penalty. In terms of disreputable behaviour, Livvy are standing head and shoulders above anyone else in the country, and it needs to stop.

You are preaching to the converted mate. I'd take the relegation to the Third Division right now if it meant things getting back onto something approaching an even keel.

At the end of the day, there's nothing to be proud of in the way Livingston FC has conducted it's affairs and I agree that there should be a deterrent for financial mismanagement. IMHO There should also be a greater scrutiny of the people who buy into football clubs to ensure that have the wherewithal to deal with things properly.

You can argue that Livingston fans have been moribund, but at the end of the day we aren't the ones who have mismanaged the club time and again.

What has happened to us has and will happen to other clubs. Dundee are a prime example of a club who have been there before. Suddenly they have another new investor and they are looking like splashing the cash, potentially starting the whole cycle off again.

Clubs need to operate within their means, yet even allowing for all the warnings, most of them operating full time don't.

[EdinburghLivi]

I just hope we're relegated to the 3rd with the slate wiped clean. It's the only way for us to prosper in the long run. Nixon and co. are fans which makes the difference in my opinion. Perhaps with a community based club we can increase the attendances over time as there is no way we can move forward with a home support which barely reaches 1,000.

[Chuckinho]

I just hope we're relegated to the 3rd with the slate wiped clean. It's the only way for us to prosper in the long run. Nixon and co. are fans which makes the difference in my opinion. Perhaps with a community based club we can increase the attendances over time as there is no way we can move forward with a home support which barely reaches 1,000.

What do you mean by wiping the slate clean. Does that mean administration and writing off debts?

[EdinburghLivi]

Aye, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[MCL]

What do you mean by wiping the slate clean. Does that mean administration and writing off debts?

Yes that is what wiping the slate clean means in this case. I've heard from a good source in the media that there will be a story in the papers tomorrow about the SFL withholding the money due from the league placings to help pay for the player's wages that are still due.

It won't be long now...