Livingston - all the threads merged

[LLD]

The situation is now about as bad as it possibly can be from my perspective. Not only is the club on its uppers, but the person in charge of it seems to be totally discharged from reality.

As has been said, I've been attempting to point out Massone's failings for quite some time. I fear that although the main body of Livingston supporters has now woken up to the fact that he is a liar and a thief it's probably too late.

Massone is a very unorthodox man. He might even be mentally ill. As such it's impossible to guess where he will go from here. It's certainly possible that he will try to conclude the Griffiths deal with Dundee or someone else but it's likely that any monies will be arrested. I would be amazed if the council don't try it for starters.

The smart move for Massone would now be to do a deal with Gordon McDougall and or the Trust. Sadly I think he's more likely to close the club down. Any deal would have to happen very soon if the fixture commitments can be met for the new season, even with a scratch team.

Of course, the worry is what horrors would be found in the club ledgers. I know from experience that the practice of not paying bills has been going on since the day they took over at Almondvale. There must be a colossal amount of debt stacked up.

I'm willing to bet that there will be significant amounts of PAYE, NICs and VAT due too, and the last thing you want to be doing is owing HMRC money.

I am sure that KingfaetheSooth and his ilk will be laughing and sneering at the situation, but I hope that most people here and across football will recognise that Livingston have a fairly loyal, if small band of supporters who would be devastated if the club disappears.

As gutted as I am myself, I am already shuddering at the thought of having to tell my nine year old that there is no more Livi for him to go and see.

And it's worth pointing out that the mismanagement and negligence of Angelo Massone isn't unique. It has happened before at the likes of Morton. It will most likely happen again unless the footballing authorities get their finger out at long last and introduce regulation of who is allowed to run a football club in this country and undertake greater scrutiny of football club finances.

Angelo Massone is a living example of why football needs a fit and proper persons test. If LFC ends up down the tubes, it would be a crumb of comfort if steps could be taken to minimise a simialr thing from happening again.

[Yoss]

Good post LLD.

But the fit and proper persons test, it's very difficult to see what could have been done. Massone, as far as we know, isn't a convicted fraudster or bankrupt or anything that would have given any reason for him to fail any such test, as far as I'm aware. Yeah, he's turned out to be a nutter and total incompetent, but how do you devise a test that's going to screen effectively for that?

[Yoss]

And as for scrutiny of club finances, for one thing Livi haven't submitted their accounts (and the SFL don't have the resources to go round auditing clubs on a more active basis, even if that were desirable) and in any case there are other clubs who are living beyond their means and being subsidised by benefactors. Which is perfectly legitimate even if it might not sound like a very clever long-term business plan.

[LLD]

Good post LLD.

But the fit and proper persons test, it's very difficult to see what could have been done. Massone, as far as we know, isn't a convicted fraudster or bankrupt or anything that would have given any reason for him to fail any such test, as far as I'm aware. Yeah, he's turned out to be a nutter and total incompetent, but how do you devise a test that's going to screen effectively for that?

Good point but there was precisely no checking done at all as far as I am aware. I'm still not totally convinced he's even a proper lawyer.

Checks could be done to ensure that people/clubs have the funds they claim to have in order to meet commitments. It's been suggested before but there could be some sort of bond introduced when new people without a track record buy into football.

This won't go down well with some but Davie Hay ('the legend' ) should never have been allowed to be involved after his close association with the last admin disaster.

Hay is one seriously bad judge of character. First his mate Keane the fraudster and now Massone and his son-in-law Angelini who he described a year ago as 'nice guys and good people'.

[Tryfield]

I honestly hope Livi don't go bust. It just seems that in the last few years, clubs are a one man band. Guys putting themselves and their profiles before the clubs welfare will never work.

[MCL]

Surely not even MCL can defend this lunatic now.

:lol:

Where was I defending him? If you've got a spare two days to read the whole thread again you'll find a lot of it was around the court action I had to take against Massone to recover what was due to me.

[Yoss]

Good point but there was precisely no checking done at all as far as I am aware. I'm still not totally convinced he's even a proper lawyer.

Checks could be done to ensure that people/clubs have the funds they claim to have in order to meet commitments. It's been suggested before but there could be some sort of bond introduced when new people without a track record buy into football.

This won't go down well with some but Davie Hay ('the legend' ) should never have been allowed to be involved after his close association with the last admin disaster.

Hay is one seriously bad judge of character. First his mate Keane the fraudster and now Massone and his son-in-law Angelini who he described a year ago as 'nice guys and good people'.

The bond thing has indeed been suggested before would, for one thing, be a serioue impediment for anyone trying to help a football club out in such a circumstance, or indeed more or less anyone getting involved in football at low levels. Not least a Trust. And I can't agree with you there was any good reason for stopping David Hay either - are you suggesting anyone who has managed a club going into administration should be prevented working in football again? I appreciate what you're saying and it would be nice to think something can be done, but easy as it is to be wise after the event it's very hard to devise any set of rules that would have distinguished, as of last summer, between the new regime at Livi and plenty of other regimes that are perfectly legit and have done well with other clubs.

[KingfaetheSooth]

What sort of assurances? Massone would have given those assurances, what would you do then?

The conference require clubs to provide robust financial figures every quarter. They are also shit hot with club who run up debts.

That would be a start.....

[ffcsam]

Sad to say but i think the Livi will be gone very soon. I hope not but i cant even see a candle light at the end of the tunnel. Too many crooks have spoiled your club. Keep fighting though!

[Yoss]

The conference require clubs to provide robust financial figures every quarter. They are also shit hot with club who run up debts.

That would be a start.....

Okay, there's probably something that can be learnt there.

When you say "shit hot", what action do they / can they take?

[Skyline Drifter]

Who is on the League Management Comittee? They cannot have failed to have a contingency plan, again.

There was no suspicion of what was about to happen. It was a widely known fact they would go bust! Skyline, an employee of your club told me it would happen, he even told me with reasonable accuracy when Mileson would pull out. Before they had even gone up. PM me if you like to discuss.

So basically I don't believe they don't know what is going to happen, and possibly that things are being allowed to run there course....vested interests maybe?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here or what it's relevance is? Nor have I any intention of PM'ing you about it.

It was widely known locally that Gretna were running up bills they couldn't pay even before they were promoted. The national press knew but didn't report it because it impinged on their "fairytale" stuff. Anyone in Dumfries & Galloway could probably have predicted what was going to happen to Gretna be they employee of our club or anyone else. This has been somewhat different. The SFL didn't really have that big a problem with Gretna per se. They were an SPL side before things really hit the fan and gone in all but legal terms before they returned.

[lyle be back]

Good point but there was precisely no checking done at all as far as I am aware. I'm still not totally convinced he's even a proper lawyer.

Yes, surely if he is a lawyer, he has a professional body that has ethics standards that he has to maintain. Like not being hauled up in court every 5 minutes, not drink driving etc. I know he's Italian, but surely even the Italian legal system has some sort of standards?

As mentioned previously, this has been like watching a very slow car crash. Yet I still don't know what the Livi fans are doing about it. Massolini seems to have been expert at dividing them. Surely, the fans now have to unite and:

start their own fund raising (contingency budget)

approach local businesses/ etc for potential backing when Massolini is toppled

actively campaign for the removal of Massolini - make it obvious he is not wanted

get in place the contingency plan to take to the SFA when the house of cards falls down - 3rd Div football based

discuss with the council viable options re the stadium

Whether this is with the Trust or through some other means it does not matter. If the Trust has divided the fans then a new supporters body should be set up. The Trust could be co-opted in and given 'board seats' on this new united body commensurate with their financial involvement. As could other investors.

If the fans really love the club, they should be busting a gut to save it - I don't see much evidence of this - all I can see (publicly at least) is infighting. I have sympathy for fans like LLD who obviously love their club and can see the very real possibility of it folding.

[Savage Henry]

Alternatively, all of the above have been tried, and the club is completely financially unsustainable. Perhaps Livingston would be screwed no matter who was in charge. I have no idea, just speculating.

Either way, until pretty recently, the inevitability of Gretna's demise - common knowledge for years before they died - or the Raith fiasco under Anelka (which was denied by most of the Raith fans on here, incidentally), or the patent corruption at Hearts (also largely denied by Hearts fans) - didn't exist with Livingston. Or perhaps it did, but I never sensed it.

Sadly, Livingston are on life support and they won't recover.

[Yoss]

Alternatively, all of the above have been tried, and the club is completely financially unsustainable. Perhaps Livingston would be screwed no matter who was in charge. I have no idea, just speculating.

Either way, until pretty recently, the inevitability of Gretna's demise - common knowledge for years before they died - or the Raith fiasco under Anelka (which was denied by most of the Raith fans on here, incidentally), or the patent corruption at Hearts (also largely denied by Hearts fans) - didn't exist with Livingston. Or perhaps it did, but I never sensed it.

Sadly, Livingston are on life support and they won't recover.

I wasn't here in those days but what was denied at what stage?

[Sergeant Wilson]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here or what it's relevance is? Nor have I any intention of PM'ing you about it.

It was widely known locally that Gretna were running up bills they couldn't pay even before they were promoted. The national press knew but didn't report it because it impinged on their "fairytale" stuff. Anyone in Dumfries & Galloway could probably have predicted what was going to happen to Gretna be they employee of our club or anyone else. This has been somewhat different. The SFL didn't really have that big a problem with Gretna per se. They were an SPL side before things really hit the fan and gone in all but legal terms before they returned.

The point I was trying to make was that the personnel on The LMC didn't seem that keen to tackle the situation despite having a fairly shrewd idea of what is going on, just as they could have anticipated this cropping up. Where is the harm in being open and saying if scenario a happens we will do this or scenario b we will do that. It might help with the public perception that the whole operation is on a wing and a prayer.

The other point was simply that allowing the situation to get to this stage clubs who should have been relgated or did not acieve promotion may benefit from this as they did when Gretna "happened".

Lastly regarding QoS employee, I only mentione ***** and his prediction to illustrate that the "facts" were widely known in football circles long before they became public.

The reason I asked you to PM was, I think we may have met before and certainly will have mutual acquaintances, I would have "introduced" myself privately, not interested? Suit yourself, but watch you don't fall of that horse, it looks a bit high up there.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sergeant Wilson

[The Master]

I'm facing a bit of a dilemma here.

As much as I don't want to see a club going out of business, I find it hard to shed any tears over Livi's current plight after what they did to Dundee 5 years ago.

Maybe Earl is right...

[Savage Henry]

I wasn't here in those days but what was denied at what stage?

The palpable ridiculousness of it. The laughable (for non Raith fans) corruption. The inevitable absurdity and failure. There were many Raith fans - not all but many - who regarded Anelka as some kind of messiah. They really did, and denying it now is pure revisionism, Just as many Dundee fans welcomed that nazi war criminal, fake lawyer Italian chap's promises of billions, most people could see through him a mile off. It takes a certain separation from events to recgonise them for what they are.

The point is this though. Livingston have never looked, from a distance, to be doomed. Not until recently. I have quite a deal of sympathy with the SFL in this case

[Skyline Drifter]

The point I was trying to make was that the personnel on The LMC didn't seem that keen to tackle the situation despite having a fairly shrewd idea of what is going on, just as they could have anticipated this cropping up. Where is the harm in being open and saying if scenario a happens we will do this or scenario b we will do that. It might help with the public perception that the whole operation is on a wing and a prayer.

Like I said, I don't think the LMC actually had much of an issue to deal with as regards Gretna. They had gone from the SFL before anything seriously hit in football terms like paying people late wages, owing football debt, etc.

[KingfaetheSooth]

I am sure that KingfaetheSooth and his ilk will be laughing and sneering at the situation, but I hope that most people here and across football will recognise that Livingston have a fairly loyal, if small band of supporters who would be devastated if the club disappears.

As gutted as I am myself, I am already shuddering at the thought of having to tell my nine year old that there is no more Livi for him to go and see.

Just like the 9 year old child who bawled his eyes out when Meadowbank Thistle was franchised to West Lothian against the wishes of their fans in the 80's then? Or the hundreds of kids who supported Wimbledon FC when their club was franchised to Milton Keynes in 2002?

Welcome to my world.

Okay, there's probably something that can be learnt there.

When you say "shit hot", what action do they / can they take?

Read the comments by the Conference Chairman in the link below. They take debts and financial monitoring quite seriously. That said, it's probably not enough.

http://www.cambridge-united.co.uk/page/New...1695934,00.html

[KingfaetheSooth]

When I heard Gordon Smith talk at the Supporters Direct' Scottish Conference a few years ago, I thought that Scottish football was fucked - I haven't changed my mind.