Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

Love Martindale to bits but I feel as if he is a broken man who is too much in his own head to see the serious problems playing out on the park.

- Crap goalie regardless of the money we paid. Second and third goals today made it so easy for the striker. He rarely makes saves out of the ordinary and we consistently lose goals even when we give away few shots on target. We need to cut our losses or figure out how to improve him urgently. 

- Playing a crap system that limits our opportunities to score goals so that we can shoehorn 3 pretty average centre backs into the team.

- Despite playing 3 pretty average centre backs for the explicit reason of keeping things tight at the back, regularly conceding really amateur goals like the third today. 

- Consistently playing a number of players including 2 of our best attacking outlets from last season in Montano and Nouble out of position so as to totally nullify their impact on the game and ruin their confidence. This has had a knock-on effect on Anderson whose confidence also looks shot. 

 

I recently said this on this thread but have been saying to my mates again and again over the past few seasons - when we have the smallest budget in the division, why are we spending what limited money we have on a bloated squad of 27 where players are sitting in the stands, rotting on the bench or stinking up the joint on the pitch?

Tom Parkes - How on earth did we trigger 2 additional years on his deal when he has played (according to transfermarkt) about 25 games for us over 3 seasons? Regardless of whether or not he is a good guy, this club has gone through enough financial issues to give allegedly expensive players 3 year deals out of sympathy. He has not looked good enough and is taking the opportunities away from Ledingham on the bench. 

Michael Nottingham - What was the point in this signing unless you are sticking him where Obileye is playing? Regardless of any issues Martindale appears to have with De Lucas, Luiyi is streets ahead of Nottingham in that right centre back role as shown today in Nottingham's display and earlier this season with Luiyi doing really well. 

Steven Bradley - When it was clear that we were not going to play with wingers this season, Bradley should have been right out the door on loan. He can't add anything for us in this system, what is the point in him wasting his talent on the bench? For Bahamboula's faults, if we can't get rid, put him on the bench instead of Bradley as he at least has height and size. 

Andrew Shinnie - Should have been given a new contract to play in an attacking position or let go last summer. He does not add enough in the middle of the park. Lawal could be a cheap centre midfield alternative on the bench with Sangare getting more minutes.

Danny Lloyd - Regardless of talent, I can't believe someone looked at this guy's history and thought he could play in this system. Nothing against him but a complete waste of a wage for 3 months.

That's 5 players probably on around £4k a week combined that we could have easily done without. That is without discussing the Teto or Bitsindou (seemingly signed because of PTSD from that Motherwell game without any look at his ability) shambles. 

Regardless of what happens, the manager should put trimming the fat from the squad as their highest priority in January. Pay up contracts, send players out on loans to get some money back or be lucky and get some money from transfers - it needs to happen.

This season can still be salvaged if we move fast and cleverly. We might just get a good set of results (January fixtures are not awful) and pull ourselves back into contention. The teams above us do not have much better squads but are getting important results from good tactical setups from their management teams whereas we are not.

tl;dr.

Edited December 31, 2023 by EdinburghLivi

[EdinburghLivi]

In reasonably realistic world, I'd be looking to end January with our squad looking something like this:

GK: Hamilton; New
RB: Brandon; Welch-Hayes
LB: Penrice; Montano
CB: Devlin; Obileye; Nottingham; Donnellan (hope to f**k he's good)
Defensive CM: Holt; Sean Kelly
Attacking CM: Pittman; Sangare; New
LW: Nouble; Shinnie
RW: Mackay; Bradley
ST: Anderson; Guthrie; New

Potential Loans: Ledingham, Lawal

That's 24 which could probably be trimmed further.

Out:
George (Nominal fee) - I imagine someone will improve him or be fooled like we were. 
Parkes (loan) - Punt him to the National League or NLN/NLS. Any money we can get off his wage can be put towards someone new.
Bahamboula (free) - He was apparently close to moving on deadline day before that fell through. Open up negotiations with Burton again, if that has not already happened.
Stephen Kelly (Nominal fee) - I get the sense he will be unhappy and want to move based on his game time. Cash in now while he still has credit in the bank.
Aphelele Teto (free) - Pretend this never happened and move on. 
Luiyi De Lucas (free) - Can't imagine him being happy with recent criticism. Again, get rid while he has credit in the bank from early in the season performances.
Scott Bitsindou (free) - Pay off his contract and move on. 

[Dav nan Gael]

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, EdinburghLivi said:

In reasonably realistic world, I'd be looking to end January with our squad looking something like this:

GK: Hamilton; New
RB: Brandon; Welch-Hayes
LB: Penrice; Montano
CB: Devlin; Obileye; Nottingham; Donnellan (hope to f**k he's good)
Defensive CM: Holt; Sean Kelly
Attacking CM: Pittman; Sangare; New
LW: Nouble; Shinnie
RW: Mackay; Bradley
ST: Anderson; Guthrie; New

Potential Loans: Ledingham, Lawal

That's 24 which could probably be trimmed further.

In a reasonably realistic world, Livingston trying to operate a 24 man playing squad in the top flight with the smallest budget and operating revenue in the league is only going to lead to sub-standard dross throughout that squad. You cannot possibly hope to achieve both quality and cover for every position on the park.

Presumably your current squad is a bloated mess already given the number of wishful thinking departures being discussed too - and that's your most obvious problem IMO.

[Molotov]

10 minutes ago, virginton said:

In a reasonably realistic world, Livingston trying to operate a 24 man playing squad in the top flight with the smallest budget and operating revenue in the league is only going to lead to sub-standard dross throughout that squad. You cannot possibly hope to achieve both quality and cover for every position on the park.

Presumably your current squad is a bloated mess already given the number of wishful thinking departures being discussed too - and that's your most obvious problem IMO.

St Mirren operate with a very small first team squad. At AGM our manager said we had 19 outfield players with two goalkeepers in our first team squad. We do have some academy graduates out on loan.

https://www.stmirren.com/teams/first-team/first-team-squad

[ATLIS]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

In a reasonably realistic world, Livingston trying to operate a 24 man playing squad in the top flight with the smallest budget and operating revenue in the league is only going to lead to sub-standard dross throughout that squad. You cannot possibly hope to achieve both quality and cover for every position on the park.

Presumably your current squad is a bloated mess already given the number of wishful thinking departures being discussed too - and that's your most obvious problem IMO.

And he's sat saying we're 4-5 short  It's the squad he built, he needs to take the blame and walk

[EdinburghLivi]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

In a reasonably realistic world, Livingston trying to operate a 24 man playing squad in the top flight with the smallest budget and operating revenue in the league is only going to lead to sub-standard dross throughout that squad. You cannot possibly hope to achieve both quality and cover for every position on the park.

Presumably your current squad is a bloated mess already given the number of wishful thinking departures being discussed too - and that's your most obvious problem IMO.

Agree totally. I mentioned in my longer rant that the squad is listed as 27 players which is way too much. We are paying expensive players to sit in the stand every weekend and this has been the case for the last 2 seasons. Martindale has lost the plot with squad building and helped to contribute to financial losses. 

I say 'reasonably realistic' as I don't see many others from my list being dumped. If I had Football Manager freedom, I'd be moving on Bradley, Nottingham and Shinnie to get to 21 which includes 2 young players I earmarked for potential loans. Then use academy players (so that is not a complete waste of money) to fill out the bench. The three new players would take a big chunk of the wages saved.

What I think will actually happen is that Martindale won't be sacked and we'll end up with a squad of 30 players when nobody takes the rejects. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by EdinburghLivi

[LIVIFOREVER]

Looking at those goals, we need to bin Nouble and Shamal. Would add Shinnie, Parkes, and Sean Kelly to that list too.

Bitsindou and Bahamboula are under contract and eating up a wage because we can't get rid of them. That's 7 that aren't much use to us.

 

The 27 or 28 player squad is a bit misleading though, there are 2 we tried to bin from last season that wont leave, a couple of youth players, a half signing in Teto (can't get clearance to play), a loan player that was a short term emergency cover during an injury crisis, a couple for the future (maybe, if they work out), and a loan player who's injured and away back to Hibs.  I'd say we've 18, maybe 19 we are using that's good enough, but could be doing with punting 3 or 4 of them to freshen things up.

Edited December 31, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[CharlieWhisky]

4 hours ago, Dav nan Gael said:

To be fair DM said on Sky that the conversation on his future will be with “the two Johns”, no mention of a Dave.

[CharlieWhisky]

I imagine Shamal George will be keen to move on and call in some I-used-to-play-for-Liverpool cache while he’s young enough. Getting relegated here isn’t going to look good on his CV. Would be good if he goes somewhere we can get a performance bonus like ‘paid on promotion’ as I don’t think we’re getting a fee right now.

Anderson and Stephen Kelly moving on feels like the best move for all parties. They’re definitely two of those on DM’s list of “not up for the challenge”. 

Welch-Hayes was mentioned in one of the articles about Donnellan as being someone moving out in January.

[Freedom Farter]

8 hours ago, EdinburghLivi said:

Love Martindale to bits but I feel as if he is a broken man who is too much in his own head to see the serious problems playing out on the park.

- Crap goalie regardless of the money we paid. Second and third goals today made it so easy for the striker. He rarely makes saves out of the ordinary and we consistently lose goals even when we give away few shots on target. We need to cut our losses or figure out how to improve him urgently. 

- Playing a crap system that limits our opportunities to score goals so that we can shoehorn 3 pretty average centre backs into the team.

- Despite playing 3 pretty average centre backs for the explicit reason of keeping things tight at the back, regularly conceding really amateur goals like the third today. 

- Consistently playing a number of players including 2 of our best attacking outlets from last season in Montano and Nouble out of position so as to totally nullify their impact on the game and ruin their confidence. This has had a knock-on effect on Anderson whose confidence also looks shot. 

 

I recently said this on this thread but have been saying to my mates again and again over the past few seasons - when we have the smallest budget in the division, why are we spending what limited money we have on a bloated squad of 27 where players are sitting in the stands, rotting on the bench or stinking up the joint on the pitch?

Tom Parkes - How on earth did we trigger 2 additional years on his deal when he has played (according to transfermarkt) about 25 games for us over 3 seasons? Regardless of whether or not he is a good guy, this club has gone through enough financial issues to give allegedly expensive players 3 year deals out of sympathy. He has not looked good enough and is taking the opportunities away from Ledingham on the bench. 

Michael Nottingham - What was the point in this signing unless you are sticking him where Obileye is playing? Regardless of any issues Martindale appears to have with De Lucas, Luiyi is streets ahead of Nottingham in that right centre back role as shown today in Nottingham's display and earlier this season with Luiyi doing really well. 

Steven Bradley - When it was clear that we were not going to play with wingers this season, Bradley should have been right out the door on loan. He can't add anything for us in this system, what is the point in him wasting his talent on the bench? For Bahamboula's faults, if we can't get rid, put him on the bench instead of Bradley as he at least has height and size. 

Andrew Shinnie - Should have been given a new contract to play in an attacking position or let go last summer. He does not add enough in the middle of the park. Lawal could be a cheap centre midfield alternative on the bench with Sangare getting more minutes.

Danny Lloyd - Regardless of talent, I can't believe someone looked at this guy's history and thought he could play in this system. Nothing against him but a complete waste of a wage for 3 months.

That's 5 players probably on around £4k a week combined that we could have easily done without. That is without discussing the Teto or Bitsindou (seemingly signed because of PTSD from that Motherwell game without any look at his ability) shambles. 

Regardless of what happens, the manager should put trimming the fat from the squad as their highest priority in January. Pay up contracts, send players out on loans to get some money back or be lucky and get some money from transfers, it needs to happen.

This season can still be salvaged if we move fast and cleverly. We might just get a good set of results (where fixtures are not awful) and pull ourselves back into contention. The teams above us do not have much better squads but are getting important results from good tactical setups from their management teams whereas we are not.

tl;dr.

My opinion on George is mixed rather than negative but I agree he should be sold in January if possible. We need the money and Hamilton can probably do as good a job with a cheap loan signing brought in as back up.

I agree Nottingham shouldn't have been signed. The wage should've instead gone on a quality defensive midfielder to partner Holt. Now that Nottingham is here, though, I think he's useful. The problem yesterday was that you can get away with one slow centre back but never two. Bair's second goal highlighted this as Devlin got burned for pace in the left channel and Obileye didn't have the speed to cover across in time. 

I'm surprised you didn't mention Guthrie. His continued inclusion is half the reason Anderson often isn't on the pitch and Nouble gets moved back to midfield. For our goal yesterday we saw how Nouble was actually able to control the ball with his back to goal and lay it off (to Montaño who then chipped through for Pittman to score). Guthrie can't do that, he can't get the ball under control and make a simple lay off pass. Its so obvious the inclusion of this player is blunting our attack. His mere presence encourages these long central floated "passes" in his general direction which we're all sick of. 

Shinnie was always a bad signing. He's a good player but as an attacking mid he came in when Pittman was still flying high in the role then as Pittman gradually lost his attacking edge, Stephen Kelly arrived as the heir apparent. Therefore Shinnie has never been needed, he's somewhat been in the way of Stephen Kelly's development, and the more recent attempt to convert him into a centre mid has not borne fruit. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[Freedom Farter]

33 minutes ago, CharlieWhisky said:

Anderson and Stephen Kelly moving on feels like the best move for all parties. They’re definitely two of those on DM’s list of “not up for the challenge”. 

Are you sure about Anderson? Just that on the pitch he's Mr Commitment then off the pitch there's been charitable gestures and fan engagement from him.

[Rugbypark]

Anderson is coming to Killie in January.

[ATLIS]

1 hour ago, Rugbypark said:

Anderson is coming to Killie in January.

I'd imagine we'd ask for daft money for our first choice striker while we're pretending that we're fighting relegation. We had a similar thing with Forrest where we'd agreed 150k, so 150k-200k would be the fee I'd imagine. Especially if we're using it to revamp the squad.

We only didn't get the 150k because Forrest turned down the move

Edited December 31, 2023 by ATLIS

[Rhys McCabe Hype Train]

A lot of talk about just getting shot of a number of players… surely if David “I don’t have the budget” Martindale, you know, doesn’t have the budget to sign players then there isn’t the budget to pay players up until the end of the season?

It looks like he’s all getting a bit desperate now the way he’s turned on the group that he’s built. When managers do that there doesn’t tend to be any comeback, albeit many don’t have the situation that he has at Livingston.

[EdinburghLivi]

8 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

I'm surprised you didn't mention Guthrie. His continued inclusion is half the reason Anderson often isn't on the pitch and Nouble gets moved back to midfield. For our goal yesterday we saw how Nouble was actually able to control the ball with his back to goal and lay it off (to Montaño who then chipped through for Pittman to score). Guthrie can't do that, he can't get the ball under control and make a simple lay off pass. Its so obvious the inclusion of this player is blunting our attack. His mere presence encourages these long central floated "passes" in his general direction which we're all sick of. 

It's probably an indictment of far we've fallen but I think Guthrie has been one of our more effective players in recent weeks, winning balls in the air. If we went back to a 4-2-3-1 system, I think he is an ok option to have on the bench until the end of the season. Agree with you though, his ability with the ball at his feet is not great.

[crispy]

I tend to agree that Guthrie has been better in recent weeks. I think Anderson looks fully committed on the park, too.

I think Jason Holt’s form has been good, too, just a shame there’s been some duff performances around him. Penrice probably pots so far too.

Hamilton looks good enough for us to move on Shamal if we can. We have been exposed for a lack of pace at the back and I think De Lucas might be the best option. That said, we hadn’t been conceding a exceptional amount of goals recently which makes yesterdays comical defending all the more surprising. We really did shoot ourselves in the foot. I do think we’ve got the squad to win some games before the season is out, as indicated by fine margins in preceding weeks, but the players on the park are going to have to pull themselves together.  

I’d like to retain Stephen Kelly but I appreciate the wheels may be in motion for him to move. 
 

Edit: should add that with Nouble playing out of position his decision making is uncertain and I think that would be a tactical issue.

Edited December 31, 2023 by crispy

[LIVIFOREVER]

9 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

My opinion on George is mixed rather than negative but I agree he should be sold in January if possible. We need the money and Hamilton can probably do as good a job with a cheap loan signing brought in as back up.

I agree Nottingham shouldn't have been signed. The wage should've instead gone on a quality defensive midfielder to partner Holt. Now that Nottingham is here, though, I think he's useful. The problem yesterday was that you can get away with one slow centre back but never two. Bair's second goal highlighted this as Devlin got burned for pace in the left channel and Obileye didn't have the speed to cover across in time. 

I'm surprised you didn't mention Guthrie. His continued inclusion is half the reason Anderson often isn't on the pitch and Nouble gets moved back to midfield. For our goal yesterday we saw how Nouble was actually able to control the ball with his back to goal and lay it off (to Montaño who then chipped through for Pittman to score). Guthrie can't do that, he can't get the ball under control and make a simple lay off pass. Its so obvious the inclusion of this player is blunting our attack. His mere presence encourages these long central floated "passes" in his general direction which we're all sick of. 

Shinnie was always a bad signing. He's a good player but as an attacking mid he came in when Pittman was still flying high in the role then as Pittman gradually lost his attacking edge, Stephen Kelly arrived as the heir apparent. Therefore Shinnie has never been needed, he's somewhat been in the way of Stephen Kelly's development, and the more recent attempt to convert him into a centre mid has not borne fruit. 

Really don't agree with you on Guthrie, or Nouble. We were punting long balls up to Anderson when Guthrie wasn't playing, and occasionally Nouble would header one, but mostly just left it to Anderson, a shorter player with his back to towering defenders. That has nothing to do with Guthrie, though at least when Guthrie is playing he wins the headers, just that no c**t is up there making runs to get onto them.

Nouble was also at fault for their first goal, and not for the first time he's made an arse of it around our box. On effort alone i'd pick Guthrie over Nouble every game, because Nouble goes about looking half arsed whether he can be bothered running. And Guthrie chases down balls helping Anderson out. I'd just replace Nouble with St Kelly and keep Guthrie and Anderson up front too, because for me, Nouble is like playing with 10 men for most of the game. Playing out of position or not, he's had enough chances to show his worth, and come well up short every time (bar Hibs away).

[Livi La Vida Loca]

10 hours ago, CharlieWhisky said:

DM said on Sky that the conversation on his future will be with “the two Johns”

I am in no way trying to bring previous discussions of owner's back up but surely John Mcilvogue should be having absolutely no say in anything happening given his takeover has been blocked. 

 

As for trimming the squad I agree that it needs trimmed. 

I'd absolutely take any money offered for Anderson because he will be gone in the summer and Martindale clearly doesn't rate him much anymore. 

Would love to sell Shamal but can't see it happening. 

We clearly don't have the money to release / terminate contracts but I hope we aren't extending Lloyds contract as that's up now. 

I think we absolutely need some new blood in the squad but we could improve a lot just by changing our system / tactics.

[crispy]

4 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

I am in no way trying to bring previous discussions of owner's back up but surely John Mcilvogue should be having absolutely no say in anything happening given his takeover has been blocked. 

 

As for trimming the squad I agree that it needs trimmed. 

I'd absolutely take any money offered for Anderson because he will be gone in the summer and Martindale clearly doesn't rate him much anymore. 

Would love to sell Shamal but can't see it happening. 

We clearly don't have the money to release / terminate contracts but I hope we aren't extending Lloyds contract as that's up now. 

I think we absolutely need some new blood in the squad but we could improve a lot just by changing our system / tactics.

DM said on vid the other week that someone was away, think it was Lloyd.