Livingston - all the threads merged

[LIVIFOREVER]

32 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Pittman is such a good one touch finisher. Either meeting a cross like against Morton or getting onto a loose ball like today and against Dunfermline.

Some tackle by him too, timed it perfectly taking the ball from the Accies player who was breaking forward, superb.

Edited Saturday at 18:50 by LIVIFOREVER

[Freedom Farter]

8 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Some tackle by him too, timed it perfectly taking the ball from the Accies player who was breaking forward, superb.

 

Plus his assist for Muirhead's second with a nice through pass. He had a great game, Pittman, and I'm looking forward to seeing his goal again.

Another point, those were three storming sub appearances from Montaño, Muirhead and Sole. Especially Muirhead, obviously, and all credit to him for his goals.

[Troy.1995]

I for one am delighted Carson has stayed with us.Knows this division, and when fully fit gives us a positive option. Rock solid and dependable.Gives us that bite when required ..

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Plus his assist for Muirhead's second with a nice through pass. He had a great game, Pittman, and I'm looking forward to seeing his goal again.

Another point, those were three storming sub appearances from Montaño, Muirhead and Sole. Especially Muirhead, obviously, and all credit to him for his goals.

You look at our bench and there's 5 or 6 that could easily start games, for the level we're playing, i think it's the strongest looking squad we've had for a long time.

[LIVIFOREVER]

On 08/09/2024 at 13:00, LIVIFOREVER said:

Looking forward to seeing how different players have recorded their goal celebration on twitter vids now. Pitts being quite shy and reserved might just give a wee smile and that's it. Muirhead is complete opposite and will really give it large.

Didn't have to wait long, both scoring today.

Wasn't far off what i expected Pitts doing.

On 08/09/2024 at 15:47, Cptn Hooch said:

Fully expecting Muirhead to be kicking chairs over, flicking the V's while smoking a cigar

Liked your version on what Muirhead would do better.

 

 

 

 

 

[CharlieWhisky]

They will still be pushing this ‘buy a bit of the pitch’ pish in 18 months like the limited edition whisky they’ve never punted.

[Cptn Hooch]

7 hours ago, CharlieWhisky said:

They will still be pushing this ‘buy a bit of the pitch’ pish in 18 months like the limited edition whisky they’ve never punted.

Like all money making initiatives, you win some you lose some 

[Livi La Vida Loca]

Think yesterday showed that Muirhead should be starting. If Sole gets up to full fitness then I think he should probably start as well. 

I think Shinnie is a technically gifted player but just isn't effective out wide. Yes he gets involved in chance creation but usually it's when he drifts into the middle. 

Montano was brilliant when he came on but I wouldn't say Finlayson has done much to warrant being dropped. 

Stevie May is past his best but his current ability has him pegged as one of the best strikers in the league. Not sure Yengi will be happy to benched after his injury but May should start ahead of him. 

I'm interested in everyone else's opinion on Brandon in midfield but for me I'm not a huge fan. Not saying he's playing badly by any means but I think Green could be a better option there. 

[Cptn Hooch]

1 hour ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Think yesterday showed that Muirhead should be starting. If Sole gets up to full fitness then I think he should probably start as well. 

I think Shinnie is a technically gifted player but just isn't effective out wide. Yes he gets involved in chance creation but usually it's when he drifts into the middle. 

Montano was brilliant when he came on but I wouldn't say Finlayson has done much to warrant being dropped. 

Stevie May is past his best but his current ability has him pegged as one of the best strikers in the league. Not sure Yengi will be happy to benched after his injury but May should start ahead of him. 

I'm interested in everyone else's opinion on Brandon in midfield but for me I'm not a huge fan. Not saying he's playing badly by any means but I think Green could be a better option there. 

Montano came on for Clarke who wasn't having a great game, looked rattled after his early pass to Nottingham went straight out for a corner. Green looks like he was brought in to be Kelly's replacement with most of us expecting to lose him in the summer. Brandon is being used like Holt, in that he's there to break up attacks and get the ball to Kelly/wingers to create.

[Durnford]

I though Brandon had a pretty good game actually; really getting in their faces and breaking things up. My one concern is the amount of yellow cards he seems to be picking up; pretty much 0.75 of a card per game. (actually I think Holt was the same).

A large part of  the first half had us closing down Hamilton at every opportunity; not allowing them time to dwell on the ball. It worked well if not particularly entertaining but; obviously, one or two of the team were looking pretty knackered by about the 40th minute. 

All in all a pretty satisfactory outcome but I still wonder what Lawal needs to do to get on the pitch.

[Cptn Hooch]

3 minutes ago, Durnford said:

I though Brandon had a pretty good game actually; really getting in their faces and breaking things up. My one concern is the amount of yellow cards he seems to be picking up; pretty much 0.75 of a card per game. (actually I think Holt was the same).

A large part of  the first half had us closing down Hamilton at every opportunity; not allowing them time to dwell on the ball. It worked well if not particularly entertaining but; obviously, one or two of the team were looking pretty knackered by about the 40th minute. 

All in all a pretty satisfactory outcome but I still wonder what Lawal needs to do to get on the pitch.

Lawall came to us as an attacking midfielder and currently would be behind Kelly and Pittman. He seems to be getting turned into a winger/wingback but would still be behind Sole, Muirhead, Montano, Brandon and Finlayson. From what I've seen of him he's very good going forward but looks completely lost positionally when defending....that can be coached out of him

[Livi La Vida Loca]

16 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

Green looks like he was brought in to be Kelly's replacement

Yeah I had a similar thought but Green seems a little too good to just warm the bench. 

We are good at finding players with potential, Lawal being another example but they need game time. Really is no point giving these guys contracts for them to play very little then just leave at the end of their contract. 

Our strongest starting XI right now on paper is very good so it's hard for others to break in but we have to start looking to develop the squad as a whole. 

14 hours ago, Durnford said:

I though Brandon had a pretty good game actually; really getting in their faces and breaking things up. My one concern is the amount of yellow cards he seems to be picking up

Yeah he's not doing much wrong in midfield I'm just not a massive fan. At times when he picks the ball up I feel like he maybe tries a little too hard and his passing, while not bad, could do with some improvement. It's entirely possible I've just got too used to watching Holt.

Edited Monday at 08:14 by Livi La Vida Loca

[LIVIFOREVER]

That's the thing

1 hour ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Yeah I had a similar thought but Green seems a little too good to just warm the bench. 

We are good at finding players with potential, Lawal being another example but they need game time. Really is no point giving these guys contracts for them to play very little then just leave at the end of their contract. 

Our strongest starting XI right now on paper is very good so it's hard for others to break in but we have to start looking to develop the squad as a whole. 

Yeah he's not doing much wrong in midfield I'm just not a massive fan. At times when he picks the ball up I feel like he maybe tries a little too hard and his passing, while not bad, could do with some improvement. It's entirely possible I've just got too used to watching Holt.

That's the thing though, you look at the match day squad and you're bursting for 4 or 5 of the players down as subs to be getting on the pitch. Our bench is very strong, which is a good thing, but imo there are better players benched than what's starting.

Not a lot wrong with the starting players right enough, can't say i look at them and think why is he playing he's pish, but the likes of Lawal, Green, Muirhead and Sole are all just players that make things happen. Others like Montano* and Winter seem good impact players, Winter esp always comes on and does well, but would like to see him getting a bit longer than 10 mins in league games.

The way we're playing seems to be to scrap all first half, maybe tire opposition players out a bit, then introduce the flair players, and score some goals against tiring opposition players. If we keep on winning game then it's working right enough, just frustrating to watch our first half performances.  From a fan point of view, i'd be interested to see what we'd be like starting with our strongest attacking team, to see if we could score a few goals in the first half, and maybe just blow teams away with relentless attacking football like Falkirk are doing. Martindale is saying he reckons we've the strongest squad in the league, which i agree with him, but we've so many good quality players not being used to their full potential yet.

*you just worry about Montano getting injured so i don't mind us using him sparingly, plus we seem to have got a pretty solid defence without him, and 20 mins or so of a fit Montano is better than a few games then he's out injured for months.

 

Edited Monday at 09:54 by LIVIFOREVER

[Freedom Farter]

12 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

That's the thing

That's the thing though, you look at the match day squad and you're bursting for 4 or 5 of the players down as subs to be getting on the pitch. Our bench is very strong, which is a good thing, but imo there are better players benched than what's starting.

Not a lot wrong with the starting players right enough, can't say i look at them and think why is he playing he's pish, but the likes of Lawal, Green, Muirhead and Sole are all just players that make things happen. Others like Montano* and Winter seem good impact players, Winter esp always comes on and does well, but would like to see him getting a bit longer than 10 mins in league games.

The way we're playing seems to be to scrap all first half, maybe tire opposition players out a bit, then introduce the flair players, and score some goals against tiring opposition players. If we keep on winning game then it's working right enough, just frustrating to watch our first half performances.  From a fan point of view, i'd be interested to see what we'd be like starting with our strongest attacking team, to see if we could score a few goals in the first half, and maybe just blow teams away with relentless attacking football like Falkirk are doing. Martindale is saying he reckons we've the strongest squad in the league, which i agree with him, but we've so many good quality players not being used to their full potential yet.

*you just worry about Montano getting injured so i don't mind us using him sparingly, plus we seem to have got a pretty solid defence without him, and 20 mins or so of a fit Montano is better than a few games then he's out injured for months.

 

Falkirk only have a single player over the age of 30 (McKenna) and he only features sparingly. A relatively young side like that are going to do best when prioritising intensity and momentum in matches. We're very different. Our starting central defenders are both 35. The last thing they want are chaotic, end to end matches. Instead they're going to fare best in more controlled, more structured matches. This is partly why we've seen the improvement with Nottingham this season, because Livi are forcing the game to be played in a way that better suits him. We don't have the players to do what Falkirk do but we do have the players to do what the Hopkin then Holt sides did. Halkett, Gallagher, Lithgow, Byrne, Jacobs and Lawless were so good at game management. They knew when to force it and when to draw the sting out of proceedings. To keep the tempo suited to us not the opposition. 

Edited Monday at 22:17 by Freedom Farter

[LIVIFOREVER]

35 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Falkirk only have a single player over the age of 30 (McKenna) and he only features sparingly. A relatively young side like that are going to do best when prioritising intensity and momentum in matches. We're very different. Our starting central defenders are both 35. The last thing they want are chaotic, end to end matches. Instead they're going to fare best in more controlled, more structured matches. This is partly why we've seen the improvement with Nottingham this season, because Livi are forcing the game to be played in a way that better suits him. We don't have the players to do what Falkirk do but we do have the players to do what the Hopkin then Holt sides did. Halkett, Gallagher, Lithgow, Byrne, Jacobs and Lawless were so good at game management. They knew when to force it and when to draw the sting out of proceedings. To keep the tempo suited to us not the opposition. 

I think we do, if we play the right players.

We don't play anything like the Hopkin sides, that was all boot it up the pitch as quickly as possible to avoid getting closed down and losing possession in our own half, then winning 2nd balls and getting the ball down to play it in the opponents half. We play it out from the back now, and slowly work it up the pitch, or at least to the halfway before launching it long. We've got the players to quickly zip passes through midfield and up to our attacking players to have shots at goal. Could also use the wings more, again with the right starting XI. 

 

Our defence also looks pretty solid, the dropping down a division has helped Nottingham, along with having McGowan by his side. We're also building on having a settled defence, and players getting to know one another, and having confidence from that. Something we didn't have last season, the amount of times we changed defenders.

[Freedom Farter]

2 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

I think we do, if we play the right players.

We don't play anything like the Hopkin sides, that was all boot it up the pitch as quickly as possible to avoid getting closed down and losing possession in our own half, then winning 2nd balls and getting the ball down to play it in the opponents half. We play it out from the back now, and slowly work it up the pitch, or at least to the halfway before launching it long. We've got the players to quickly zip passes through midfield and up to our attacking players to have shots at goal. Could also use the wings more, again with the right starting XI. 

 

Our defence also looks pretty solid, the dropping down a division has helped Nottingham, along with having McGowan by his side. We're also building on having a settled defence, and players getting to know one another, and having confidence from that. Something we didn't have last season, the amount of times we changed defenders.

Montano and Sole were the two players unfortunate not to start last Saturday. Clarke has shown his worth during Montano's injury absence. Smith played especially well against Spartans and that coupled with Sole's recent injury issues might've been why Smith got the start.

Muirhead showed away to QP the issue he can have against a deep, packed defence. He's not the greatest in build up, his dribbling and passing are perhaps a bit below the other options we have in that position. His finishing and movement are fantastic, though, so he's your man in a more open game when the opposition leave space for him to exploit. Although I do think he can still work well from the start against teams just sitting in because he brings a chaos factor, eg. he'll just lash a shot in, which can pay off. He's actually been unlucky with his suspensions. Being unavailable for that opening day win against Dunfermline originally saw him lose his place to Shinnie. Then he'd probably have started the recent Spartans cup match had he not been suspended. Anyway, he's likely now played himself into the team for Airdrie with that performance against Hamilton.

Green can't get in the team because Brandon, Pittman and Kelly have been brilliant. Those three could'n't really have done any better so far and it's becoming the new Jacobs, Byrne, Pittman.

Lawal and Winter are doing well with their sub appearances but they've got quality, experienced players currently in the team ahead of them. Same with McAlear.

On the Hopkin thing, sure, I know the build up style was very different. I was meaning to draw attention to how we still managed a degree of control in games in that 17/18 season, though, we enforced our style on matches. Even in the play off matches against Dundee Utd and Partick, I never felt too anxious. The team had a real nous to them, they knew what they were doing. The 18/19 season under Holt was a bit more possession-oriented, Byrne was the conductor a bit similar to Kelly now. The team played in intervals, kept the tempo low so the likes of Alan Lithgow was never exposed. I think vague parallels can be drawn with what the current team is evolving towards. You're right, though, also major differences.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

9 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

We play it out from the back now, and slowly work it up the pitch, or at least to the halfway before launching it long. We've got the players to quickly zip passes through midfield and up to our attacking players to have shots at goal.

Slowly is being nice, it's painstakingly slow borderline snails pace. The long balls we play as well are absolutely awful. I'm fine with a long ball but they have to be accurate or into a space someone is actually running into.

I'm not a major fan of possession football/tiki-taka as it can be slow at times but I would like to see us use our midfield more in the actual midfield. When we have possession we have 6/7 players up in the final third and the other 3/4 sitting in very deep this leads to a glaringly large void on the centre of the park, which causes issues when we inevitably lose the ball. 

We are incredibly capable of moving the ball with a little speed and purpose. This is what I want more of. For a while now I have questioned what Martindale's attacking style is because it's not really clear. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

7 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Montano and Sole were the two players unfortunate not to start last Saturday. Clarke has shown his worth during Montano's injury absence. Smith played especially well against Spartans and that coupled with Sole's recent injury issues might've been why Smith got the start.

Muirhead showed away to QP the issue he can have against a deep, packed defence. He's not the greatest in build up, his dribbling and passing are perhaps a bit below the other options we have in that position. His finishing and movement are fantastic, though, so he's your man in a more open game when the opposition leave space for him to exploit. Although I do think he can still work well from the start against teams just sitting in because he brings a chaos factor, eg. he'll just lash a shot in, which can pay off. He's actually been unlucky with his suspensions. Being unavailable for that opening day win against Dunfermline originally saw him lose his place to Shinnie. Then he'd probably have started the recent Spartans cup match had he not been suspended. Anyway, he's likely now played himself into the team for Airdrie with that performance against Hamilton.

Green can't get in the team because Brandon, Pittman and Kelly have been brilliant. Those three could'n't really have done any better so far and it's becoming the new Jacobs, Byrne, Pittman.

Lawal and Winter are doing well with their sub appearances but they've got quality, experienced players currently in the team ahead of them. Same with McAlear.

On the Hopkin thing, sure, I know the build up style was very different. I was meaning to draw attention to how we still managed a degree of control in games in that 17/18 season, though, we enforced our style on matches. Even in the play off matches against Dundee Utd and Partick, I never felt too anxious. The team had a real nous to them, they knew what they were doing. The 18/19 season under Holt was a bit more possession-oriented, Byrne was the conductor a bit similar to Kelly now. The team played in intervals, kept the tempo low so the likes of Alan Lithgow was never exposed. I think vague parallels can be drawn with what the current team is evolving towards. You're right, though, also major differences.

The problem with the slow build up play, is we condense the opposition half with players moving back covering positions, Kenny Miller played that way in his short spell in charge and it was annoying watching it. Muirhead was also being ignored when making runs against QP, as we turned back looking for the safe pass. I think we're showing we have players that don't do that as much, esp with May playing, and we could move the ball quicker getting it up the wing, which in turn creates more space in behind defenders, because you've got them on the back foot. Also could play percentage passes down the wing now and again, playing it down the channels with proper wingers playing. Prior is an excellent kicker and would be able to accurately play balls to runners too.

Livi La Vida Loca

Yeah the slow build up inevitably leads to just hitting it long, if we're bringing the ball out from the back, we need to have a players in the centre of the pitch like Lawal, Green, Kelly, that can turn with the ball zipped towards them and find a pass, to get it up the pitch instead of booting it long. Patiently waiting on spaces opening up is fine, if we play in such a way we're moving the ball about quickly forcing defenders out of shape, but we aren't. The odd driving run from a CB also opens things up (Nottingham is capable of that), or even the ball to Kelly where he just turned and ran with it worked, it got us a foul just outside their box, might've been the one May hit the post from.

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

The problem with the slow build up play, is we condense the opposition half with players moving back covering positions, Kenny Miller played that way in his short spell in charge and it was annoying watching it. Muirhead was also being ignored when making runs against QP, as we turned back looking for the safe pass. I think we're showing we have players that don't do that as much, esp with May playing, and we could move the ball quicker getting it up the wing, which in turn creates more space in behind defenders, because you've got them on the back foot. Also could play percentage passes down the wing now and again, playing it down the channels with proper wingers playing. Prior is an excellent kicker and would be able to accurately play balls to runners too.

I really rate Muirhead, to be clear. I actually think he's our most potent attacker, our biggest goal threat, more even than our three centre forward options (May, Yengi and Winter). When I say he's less comfortable in build up than Shinnie/Smith/Sole/Yengi/Lawal its only slightly so. Its also not a problem because unlike those players he's a finisher first before he's a creator. His role is a bit like Thomas Muller, a wide forward, or a "space investigator" as the Germans describe it. Muirhead is looking to make runs from wide into central, goalscoring areas to get onto crosses or onto through passes. Basically, exactly what he did twice last Saturday.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

I really rate Muirhead, to be clear. I actually think he's our most potent attacker, our biggest goal threat, more even than our three centre forward options (May, Yengi and Winter). When I say he's less comfortable in build up than Shinnie/Smith/Sole/Yengi/Lawal its only slightly so. Its also not a problem because unlike those players he's a finisher first before he's a creator. His role is a bit like Thomas Muller, a wide forward, or a "space investigator" as the Germans describe it. Muirhead is looking to make runs from wide into central, goalscoring areas to get onto crosses or onto through passes. Basically, exactly what he did twice last Saturday.

Yeah can see him being our top goal scorer. Great seeing Pitts scoring goals again too, he's excellent getting onto balls played across the 6 yard box, but showed on Saturday there he has a good shot on him scoring from the edge of the box.

 

Maybe you could clear up something for me, as you're good at analysing games and tactics. Often wondered the advantages between having all 10 outfield players back defending set plays, to leaving a man up the pitch, and why we keep doing it. I mean there has to be stats showing it has merits, but from a layman's point of view (mine) i just don't see it being better than having an out ball, that also gives us a better chance to break up the pitch.

Breaking it down, when defending with everyone back we've 11 v 9, with their 9 having the GK (normally) and set piece taker, out of the numbers in the box. And the opposition prob leave 2 players outside the box to pick up clearances from us defending it, so that leaves 11 v 7 in the box.

Us leaving a player up the pitch takes 2 of their players up with him, which leaves 10 v 7, but we've now got an out ball, and someone to challenge for the ball being cleared, so it isn't casually picked up by them and played back in.

 

So basically all i see is an 11 v 7 to a 10 v 7, which still gives us a 3 man advantage. The crux of it for me is the out ball, defending with everyone back means we usually have to defend balls into our box at least twice before we get control of the ball to break from our box v only having to clear it once, and having an out ball to boot it up the pitch to counter from the halfway line. 

Long wnided post, and the short version would be, is it really that much of a defensive advantage having 1 extra man back, and worth it to tale away the out ball with leaving a player up the pitch.

Edited 22 hours ago by LIVIFOREVER