H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The problem now is we will never know but this section of the report provides ample space for both sides to interpret it as they see fit. No it doesn't. This is really really tiring. The report specifically doesn't blame Liverpool fans as the primary cause of the disaster. That's clear and indisputable. The report specifically blames Liverpool fans as an exacerbating catalyst during the disaster. That's clear and indisputable. These aren't matters of opinion, or "well, people can read into that completely different things". They are facts, drawn from evidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.' See, this is hugely disingenuous on your behalf. The Taylor report dismissed these things also. In fact, Taylor himself pretty much called police evidence lies in his report. In the chapter I quote from he dismisses certain evidence from the police witnesses and relies instead on a more believable version of events from 2 policemen and independent witnesses. Fair enough, keep quoting the Taylor Repor, if you want to, but bear in mind, he was listening to the evidence of a corrupt police force. Not in isolation, and he came to his own conclusions on what evidence he found convincing. Feel free to suggest the whole Taylor report is completely discredited and of no value. I can understand why Liverpool fans who refuse to call their own fans out for their behavour would like to do this. I'm not asking you, or anyone else to change their mind about your beliefs about what happened that day. Just as long as you, and others on here, will now respect the other side of the story as being the truth, whether you accept it or not. There were never two sides to the point I have continually made on this topic. The report the other day jhad no bearing at all on the question of culpability of a minority of Liverpool fans at the back of the queue behaving impatiently and like absolute arseholes. I have no problem with the conclusions of the report. It surprises me not in the slightest that the police lied and doctored evidence. They have done it for decades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 and that quote that HB keeps using was a preamble to him dismissing it as a significant factor.) This is very tiring also. This debate continues to be laughable. Me - "The behaviour of a minority of Liverpool fans was a contributory factor to the disaster" Others - "No it wasn't" Me - "Yes it was. Quite clearly. Look at the evidence" Others "Yeah, but it was only a few" Me - "Yes granted, but these few behaved like absolute arseholes" Others "No, but that didn't cause the crush" Me - "No, but it made it worse" Others - "Yeah, but it wasn't a significant factor and there were other more important factors." Me - "Yes, that's fair enough". Others - "See, so the fans are blameless" Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh... No. They. Are. Not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 See, this is hugely disingenuous on your behalf. Except that quote is from the Hillsbourgh Independent Panel, not me. Some of the "evidence" Taylor used..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Kenny Dalglish re Hillsborough Report "It was a really positive day for the families. "It's been a really rewarding day for them and also reward for the way in which they have conducted themselves in a dignified and respectful manner. "It's also a huge reward for the people who have supported them. "Most of the outcome was as you would have thought in terms of the fans' innocence and the way they were more helpful than hurtful. "From that point of view, on everything they were fighting for they were proved to be correct, which is fantastic recognition for them." Fine words...fine words... Kenny Dalglish on Heysel :- "Liverpool fans were blamed for killing the Italians but people forget the circumstances. On previous away trips, Liverpool fans had behaved themselves as well as anyone. So why was Heysel different? The stadium, the organisation and the attacks on Liverpool fans in Rome were factors in the Heysel disaster." " It angers me that Liverpool did all the warning, Liverpool made every effort to prevent trouble and when the worst happened Liverpool received all the blame." "I can't condone the action of some Liverpool fans but it is difficult not to react when the opposing supporters are throwing missiles at you. The fact that fatalities might result wouldn't have occurred to the Liverpool fans when they ran across. If you have been pelted with stones the year before, and suffered badly, you are not going to accept it again. That's how the trouble started. UEFA must shoulder much of the blame." "The worst mistake the Belgians and UEFA made was in allocating tickets to people not from the two clubs involved. That was a recipe for disaster. Of course it's sad when two sets of people cannot go and enjoy a game, cannot behave themselves, but you've got to be realistic. You've got to recognise the potential for trouble and do everything in your power to prevent any problems occurring. UEFA didn't do that." "These Juventus fans felt that Liverpool were responsible for the deaths of their friends. How could we be? We had been the ones warning IEFA and the Belgians. It was our supporters who had been attacked the previous year by Italians and were determined not to be ambushed again." "It was wrong that Liverpool took all the blame. Margaret Thatcher said Liverpool should be banned from Europe, and that our fans were hooligans. What did she know? She never knew many of the facts" Mmmmmm Edited September 14, 2012 by H_B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Except that quote is from the Hillsbourgh Independent Panel, not me. But that's apples and oranges. Why are you giving quotes about a completely different part of the day? That seems to be the way this has gone. Because some of the outright lies about for example, fans' behavour towards the dead have been exposed, this is in some way relevant about actions of fans during a completely different time preiod at a completely different place? Answer me this :- "are you, or are you not, claiming that there were no Liverpool fans impatiently pushing their way into the stadium?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I dont buy The Sun but when im in the shop buying my Daily Spo..... i mean Daily Record i usually flick the front page over and have a quick glance at whatever story is on the third page. "Story" aye? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's going to be interesting to see how public perception changes following the report. I obviously hope it does but am far from convinced. Already today I've read someone on another forum (We Are Perth) quoting Bettison yesterday and holding his comments up as their version of the truth. I don't even think this guy had an agenda, he's just been watching Sky Sports, heard a quote from a police officer and automatically believed it, even after all that has happened. Unfortunately I suspect, the country is littered with folk like that, who will still believe both what they hear from those in authority and what they first heard following the disaster. The quote used in the BBC documentary the other night (not sure where it orginates from) was along the lines of a lie goes round the world before the truth has even pulled it's boots on. True as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's going to be interesting to see how public perception changes following the report. I think the fact it's Liverpool fans will make it more difficult. Partly because of Heysel and some people's distaste with how the fans handled that and still handle it (I think Dalglish's comments are not at all out of step with other Liverpool fans I have heard speak about the tragedy) and partly because of the perceived "whinging Scousers/ grief monkeys" association. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 This is very tiring also. This debate continues to be laughable. Me - "The behaviour of a minority of Liverpool fans was a contributory factor to the disaster" Others - "No it wasn't" Me - "Yes it was. Quite clearly. Look at the evidence" Others "Yeah, but it was only a few" Me - "Yes granted, but these few behaved like absolute arseholes" Others "No, but that didn't cause the crush" Me - "No, but it made it worse" Others - "Yeah, but it wasn't a significant factor and there were other more important factors." Me - "Yes, that's fair enough". Others - "See, so the fans are blameless" Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh... No. They. Are. Not. If that's me you're referring to then you're misattributing those quotes. Once again, that is not how the crowd dynamics of crushes work at all. There is emphatically no evidence or substantiation for your "No, but it made it worse", there. Taylor didn't say so, despite your repeated attempts to suggest otherwise. This week's report is even clearer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 is emphatically no evidence or substantiation for your "No, but it made it worse", there. Taylor didn't say so, despite your repeated attempts to suggest otherwise. Yes he did. "There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush." Unless you are putting forward a different interpretation of the word "exacerbating" than me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 "behaving like arseholes" is your interpretation of that quote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I always find it odd how the four major disasters in British football, Ibrox, Bradford, Hillsborough and Heysel are each viewed. It is accepted by almost all that Ibrox and Bradford were tragic accidents, whereas with the latter two many apportion blame to Liverpool fans. For me, fundamentally the blame for each of the four incidents lies solely in the poor selection or design of stadium and poor organisation that was simply taken as being acceptable at the time. It comes across as being endemic in the game at the time and this attitude contributed to each of them more than any fan behaviour on the day. Some of the views in this thread have been bizarre, they sound like they come from folk who haven't been to a game of football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Bairnagain was on the right lines for those attempting to peddle the line that Liverpool fans should take 0% of the blame. The only way that claim can have substance is if you argue that Taylor's conclusions from the evidence around the build up outside the ground, drawn from, amongst others "respectable civilian witnesses" are incorrect and based on false evidence. To accept that view, you must be of the belief that no fans arriving late "impatiently pushed" those in front of them, as Taylor stated. I think you are absolutely barking if you belive that, but it is at least a logical defence. And the only logical defence to the allegation that certain Liverpool fans' anti-social behaviour was a contributory factor in the disaster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 "behaving like arseholes" is your interpretation of that quote. No. "Behaving like arseholes" is my description for people who, when confronted by a crowd situation, "impatiently push" those in front of them because they don't like waiting their turn patiently. Feel free to have a different interpretation of this behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) ...solely ... ....more than.... Your fundamental mistake. Person/Entity A cannot be held "solely" responsible, then apportioned "majority" blame thereafter. Either they are solely responsbile, to the exclusion of all other actors, or they are not. Edited September 14, 2012 by H_B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 No. "Behaving like arseholes" is my description for people who, when confronted by a crowd situation, "impatiently push" those in front of them because they don't like waiting their turn patiently. Feel free to have a different interpretation of this behaviour. We can discuss whether or not it's a reaonable interpretation of what Taylor said, sure. Just so long as we're clear, at the outset, that it isn't what he said, and that in applying a judgmental emphasis it is substantively different from anything he said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 We can discuss whether or not it's a reaonable interpretation of what Taylor said, sure. Just so long as we're clear, at the outset, that it isn't what he said, and that in applying a judgmental emphasis it is substantively different from anything he said. I have detailed, verbatim, exactly what Taylor said. Taylor said the behaviour of the Liverpool fans (a minority) exacerbated the crushes. Do you, or do you not, dispute this? Are you attempting to put forward a definition of "exacerbated" that isn't "made it worse"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I always find it odd how the four major disasters in British football, Ibrox, Bradford, Hillsborough and Heysel are each viewed. It is accepted by almost all that Ibrox and Bradford were tragic accidents, whereas with the latter two many apportion blame to Liverpool fans. For me, fundamentally the blame for each of the four incidents lies solely in the poor selection or design of stadium and poor organisation that was simply taken as being acceptable at the time. It comes across as being endemic in the game at the time and this attitude contributed to each of them more than any fan behaviour on the day. Some of the views in this thread have been bizarre, they sound like they come from folk who haven't been to a game of football. lolwut 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 lolwut I missed that on my first reading It's Kenny Dalglish isn't it!! Hi Kenny - how's the golf handicap doing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.