Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Gaz FFC]

Actually the club was in reasonable shape when Whyte took over, as things stood. Our debt had been coming down for a few years and was at a manageable level. Savings had been made and more could have been made if needed.

Obviously the big tribunal case was hanging over us (and clearly that wasn't Whyte's doing) but that was nothing definite - and still isn't....

According to the papers Murray is responsible for £79.3M of the debt, awesome shape

[Bearwithme]

According to the papers Murray is responsible for £79.3M of the debt, awesome shape

Does that include the estimated £75m for the big tribunal case (which might actually turn out to be zero)?

[Gaz FFC]

Does that include the estimated £75m for the big tribunal case (which might actually turn out to be zero)?

It does.

And it wont be zero.

Oh and santa doesn't exist either.

[Gaz FFC]

Does that include the estimated £75m for the big tribunal case (which might actually turn out to be zero)?

You also have to remember Whyte paid the loyds debt at £18M, and weren't you losing £10M a year?

Why do you want to blame Whyte for everything?

Face it, Murray is a f**king idiot who got it badly wrong. He even now tried to lie about the whole thing with his "i was duped" pish

[Bearwithme]

You also have to remember Whyte paid the loyds debt at £18M, and weren't you losing £10M a year?

Why do you want to blame Whyte for everything?

Face it, Murray is a f**king idiot who got it badly wrong. He even now tried to lie about the whole thing with his "i was duped" pish

Yeah, he paid it by hocking future season ticket sales rather than with his own money. And he didn't wipe it out completely - he shifted the debt to his own company.

I don't blame Whyte for everything and people are certainly entitled to question Murray's conduct but to ignore the major role Whyte has played in events would be absurd.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Bearwithme

[pollymac]

Our debt had been coming down for a few years and was at a manageable level. Savings had been made and more could have been made if needed.

Skipping your next reply, I'll just come back to these two nuggets.

A few points:

Since the turn of the century your club has (apparently??) managed through it's own means and not by selling off future income* to reduce debt twice, in 2010 and 2011. The overall drop in debt during that period, although it's questionable given the lack of audited accounts for the second of those years, was approximately £14m.

During that period the club benefited from Champions League prize money payouts to the tune of €35,976,000 (~£30m) and a further €736,000 from Europa League participation in the second period (accounts to 2011). Add on ticket sales from an aggregate home crowd of around 325,000 over those two years (£8-12m??) and you're looking at around £40m of non-guaranteed income in two years, but only a decrease of debt by around a third of that total.

Regarding the next bit: your club, until January, made a net spend yet failed to qualify for the Champions League. With regards 'more could have been made', the net spend you did have was actually the best case scenario for your team this season. And you failed to qualify for Europe.

Do you understand?

You still had to cut costs last summer, but didn't, preferring to gamble on getting your mitts on the £20m+ available from the Champions League.

This, and not Whyte, is what really pushed you into administration. Without the CL money promise (at the end of the season), you had no credit lines available and should have run out of money either at the end of November or perhaps at some point in December.

Craig Whyte actually kept you going a further three or four months by not paying Hector £15m or so PAYE & NIC.

A quick glance at your clubs books (those of Duff & Phelps fame) shows that you even despite stiffing Hector out of millions these last 10 months, you should be running out of funds at some point in the next few days. You now genuinely have your players to thank for keeping the big hoose open and even then Duff & Phelps fees will dig into a non-existent credit line, i.e. they will soon become creditors in their own right.

Seriously dude, your club was and is fubar.

edit for the asterisk:

*although in both of those seasons, your club did actually sell off immediate future income streams to Ticketus.

Edited April 7, 2012 by pollymac

[pollymac]

Yeah, he paid it by hocking future season ticket sales rather than with his own money. And he didn't wipe it out completely - he shifted the debt to his own company.

I don't blame Whyte for everything and people are certainly entitled to question Murray's conduct but to ignore the major role Whyte has played in events would be absurd.

That, in a nitshell, is entirely your clubs problem.

boo f*cking hoo, we want someone to pay our debts, waah, waah.

edit: haha what a quality typo; leaving it.

Edited April 7, 2012 by pollymac

[Bearwithme]

Skipping your next reply, I'll just come back to these two nuggets.

A few points:

Since the turn of the century your club has (apparently??) managed through it's own means and not by selling off future income* to reduce debt twice, in 2010 and 2011. The overall drop in debt during that period, although it's questionable given the lack of audited accounts for the second of those years, was approximately £14m.

During that period the club benefited from Champions League prize money payouts to the tune of €35,976,000 (~£30m) and a further €736,000 from Europa League participation in the second period (accounts to 2011). Add on ticket sales from an aggregate home crowd of around 325,000 over those two years (£8-12m??) and you're looking at around £40m of non-guaranteed income in two years, but only a decrease of debt by around a third of that total.

Regarding the next bit: your club, until January, made a net spend yet failed to qualify for the Champions League. With regards 'more could have been made', the net spend you did have was actually the best case scenario for your team this season. And you failed to qualify for Europe.

Do you understand?

You still had to cut costs last summer, but didn't, preferring to gamble on getting your mitts on the £20m+ available from the Champions League.

This, and not Whyte, is what really pushed you into administration. Without the CL money promise (at the end of the season), you had no credit lines available and should have run out of money either at the end of November or perhaps at some point in December.

Craig Whyte actually kept you going a further three or four months by not paying Hector £15m or so PAYE & NIC.

A quick glance at your clubs books (those of Duff & Phelps fame) shows that you even despite stiffing Hector out of millions these last 10 months, you should be running out of funds at some point in the next few days. You now genuinely have your players to thank for keeping the big hoose open and even then Duff & Phelps fees will dig into a non-existent credit line, i.e. they will soon become creditors in their own right.

Seriously dude, your club was and is fubar.

Yeah, Whyte didn't. I don't think there was any need for us to go into administration before the big tribunal result. We don't know what would have happened had Whyte not taken over. Quite possibly big players would have been sold, for example, both bringing in money and cutting the wage bill. Moreover I don't believe Murray and the bank would have wanted the hassle and embarrassment of putting us into administration until it was absolutely necessary.

[Bearwithme]

That, in a nitshell, is entirely your clubs problem.

boo f*cking hoo, we want someone to pay our debts, waah, waah.

edit: haha what a quality typo; leaving it.

Yeah, good typo.

Other than that, I was just giving you the facts. The bank debt didn't totally go away - it was shifted to Whyte's company (maybe that debt is open to challenge, I don't know).

Edited April 7, 2012 by Bearwithme

[pollymac]

Yeah, Whyte didn't. I don't think there was any need for us to go into administration before the big tribunal result. We don't know what would have happened had Whyte not taken over. Quite possibly big players would have been sold, for example, both bringing in money and cutting the wage bill. Moreover I don't believe Murray and the bank would have wanted the hassle and embarrassment of putting us into administration until it was absolutely necessary.

First bit:

We can certainly guess that barring some kind of 'sell good players and buy cheap pish but still win' type of miracle, you were still going to be heading out of Europe.

We can also guess that your £18m debt would exist.

We might also guess that the TAX and PAYE (but not the VAT part) would have been paid, so another £10m would have been added to that debt by now.

Second bit:

We might also guess that 'the bank' would have seen cumulative monthly losses of £2m or so as being utterly unsustainable.

We might also guess that the largest drain on MIH's liquid capital would see Sir David's relationship with the aforementioned bank strained past breaking point.

We might further guess that MIH's latest £117m bailout, long in the creation, would never have made it past a local managers office had that company continued to insist on underwriting reckless spending at a rate of around £20m per year.

These are all guesses of course.

What we do know, is that a company with an inherent turnover of £40m per year, capital assets worth over £100m and player assets worth £30m+ was sold for a single shiny (presumably it was shiny) pound coin and that there were a number of reasons for this.

[Bearwithme]

First bit:

We can certainly guess that barring some kind of 'sell good players and buy cheap pish but still win' type of miracle, you were still going to be heading out of Europe.

We can also guess that your £18m debt would exist.

We might also guess that the TAX and PAYE (but not the VAT part) would have been paid, so another £10m would have been added to that debt by now.

Second bit:

We might also guess that 'the bank' would have seen cumulative monthly losses of £2m or so as being utterly unsustainable.

We might also guess that the largest drain on MIH's liquid capital would see Sir David's relationship with the aforementioned bank strained past breaking point.

We might further guess that MIH's latest £117m bailout, long in the creation, would never have made it past a local managers office had that company continued to insist on underwriting reckless spending at a rate of around £20m per year.

These are all guesses of course.

What we do know, is that a company with an inherent turnover of £40m per year, capital assets worth over £100m and player assets worth £30m+ was sold for a single shiny (presumably it was shiny) pound coin and that there were a number of reasons for this.

I've already covered how the sale went down. Guesses? We've all got 'em. I don't pretend to have all the answers (as I'm sure you don't). I just give an opinion. Other folk are of course entitled to their own guesses.

[pollymac]

Yeah, good typo.

Other than that, I was just giving you the facts. The bank debt did totally go away - it was shifted to Whyte's company (maybe that debt is open to challenge, I don't know).

Aye, but the point is: you (as in the various consortia, the club, it's supporters and evidently yourself) are no way inclined to actually pay your own way, preferring instead to have someone else do it for you.

paythepiperCSC

[Gaz FFC]

Yeah, he paid it by hocking future season ticket sales rather than with his own money. And he didn't wipe it out completely - he shifted the debt to his own company.

I don't blame Whyte for everything and people are certainly entitled to question Murray's conduct but to ignore the major role Whyte has played in events would be absurd.

I was focussing that the debt was Murray's, adding to his big pile of debt

Edited April 7, 2012 by Gaz FFC

[Bearwithme]

Aye, but the point is: you (as in the various consortia, the club, it's supporters and evidently yourself) are no way inclined to actually pay your own way, preferring instead to have someone else do it for you.

paythepiperCSC

I certainly do pay my own way.

Your post seems to me to be just one of those all-too-common knee-jerk accusations. Essentially meaningless.

[Bearwithme]

I was focussing that the debt was Murrays, adding to his big pile of debt?

The £18m debt was manageable. As I understand it the club had been bringing it down faster than agreed with the bank. I was just making it clear what Whyte did. He paid the bank debt using season ticket advances. But the debt didn't go away - it was moved to Whyte's company (the former Wavetower).

[pollymac]

I certainly do pay my own way.

Your post seems to me to be just one of those all-too-common knee-jerk accusations. Essentially meaningless.

The context is clearly regarding the club.

The club are not inclined to pay their own way and have not been inclined to wholly do so for a number of years, dating back to the last millenium.

The various consortia do not want to pay their way, instead picking up the club I described earlier for a song and nary a thought given to paying that piper.

The fans continually whine about Whyte not paying off the clubs debts.

And you've not deviated from the above line of thinking.

Knee-jerk accusations? I honestly don't know a single Rangers fan who has deviated from that line of thinking. Not one. And this includes the numerous friends I've had since childhood who I'd otherwise think were quite level headed.

To a man, they all seem to think the mess their club's in, is someone else's problem.

Edited April 7, 2012 by pollymac

[pollymac]

The £18m debt was manageable. As I understand it the club had been bringing it down faster than agreed with the bank. I was just making it clear what Whyte did. He paid the bank debt using season ticket advances. But the debt didn't go away - it was moved to Whyte's company (the former Wavetower).

Aye, the debt came down by £14m in a period where the club earned £40m+ from the Champions League.

Therein lies the problem.

[Gaz FFC]

The £18m debt was manageable. As I understand it the club had been bringing it down faster than agreed with the bank. I was just making it clear what Whyte did. He paid the bank debt using season ticket advances. But the debt didn't go away - it was moved to Whyte's company (the former Wavetower).

The club was losing £10M a season and had £18M debt outstanding to Lloyds. you also had payments pending to Vienna and Hearts and several smaller ones to other clubs,all this before the BTC. Where in the name of god were you going other than administration before Whyte came in?

Whyte didn't help, but he's not solely the problem here.

At least Whyte isn't doing what Murray is, i swear i'm waiting to pick up a paper and read Murray crying Whyte made him do it and he didn't want too

[killingfloorman]

The context is clearly regarding the club.

The club are not inclined to pay their own way and have not been inclined to wholly do so for a number of years, dating back to the last millenia.

The various consortia do not want to pay their way, instead picking up the club I described earlier for a song and nary a thought given to paying that piper.

The fans continually whine about Whyte not paying off the clubs debts.

And you've not deviated from the above line of thinking.

Knee-jerk accusations? I honestly don't know a single Rangers fan who has deviated from that line of thinking. Not one. And this includes the numerous friends I've had since childhood who I'd otherwise think were quite level headed.

To a man, they all seem to think the mess their club's in, is someone else's problem.

I think this pretty much sums it up. Well done

[Gaz FFC]

The context is clearly regarding the club.

The club are not inclined to pay their own way and have not been inclined to wholly do so for a number of years, dating back to the last millenia.

The various consortia do not want to pay their way, instead picking up the club I described earlier for a song and nary a thought given to paying that piper.

The fans continually whine about Whyte not paying off the clubs debts.

And you've not deviated from the above line of thinking.

Knee-jerk accusations? I honestly don't know a single Rangers fan who has deviated from that line of thinking. Not one. And this includes the numerous friends I've had since childhood who I'd otherwise think were quite level headed.

To a man, they all seem to think the mess their club's in, is someone else's problem.

1 day a Rangers fan will be lying in his bed and it will hit him like a brick, my god they are right. WE ARE SCREWED, AND IT'S ALL OUR OWN FAULT FOR CHEATING