Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Spelt correctly

It's a fair cop, I'll come quietly....

[bennett]

1. Again, what exactly are "the assets"?

2. Read my post again, then answer the question I asked, if you're going to answer.

3. Which company is that? How many clubs called "rangers" in one form or another does this man have an interest in? And why the emphasis on the "club" in the prospectus and sales patter?

Who the f**k do you think you are Norman, dishing out questions like some 3rd rate Paxman?

Edited December 14, 2012 by bennett

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 The club and the assets of club including Ibrox and Murray Park, sorry cant be arsed telling you how many pens and mugs were included in the sale

2 I did, you did not like my answer or it did not suit, I will answer again, the purchase of the club and assets was funded mainly by investors money

3 The PLC who own and operate the club called Rangers

1. How much did "the club" cost, then?

2. No you didn't. Does it or does it not appear on the debit side of the new club's acounts?

3. And they are called.......?

Fucksake, Tedi, we're moaned at all the time for not sticking to the matter in hand. Join in now and again, why don't you?

If you reckon The Nolly's making things up, explain why. "Naw it iznae" isn't exactly international level debating, you know.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Who the f**k do you think you are Norman, dishing out questions like some 3rd rate Paxman?

Who the f**k do you think you are, dishing out insults when nobody's actually talking to you?

[Monkey Tennis]

The problem is with your questions and even more so Nollys is the way you ask them, the post is literally covered in jizz staines,

Literally? Really?

[dave.j]

1355504272[/url]' post='6892674']

Aye,Rangers 2- The Haters 0.

Hmmm.

Dunno fella, The Haters have been about 4 or 5 up since February.

And one of yours still might get chopped off.

[Burma]

Who the f**k do you think you are Norman, dishing out questions like some 3rd rate Paxman?

Obsessed with you WRK.

[bennett]

We are going round in circles, you are not interested in debating, let me solve that for you

.

Exactly, it's pointless even trying to debate when Normans spoiling every discussion with his stupid obsession.

[Burma]

Exactly, it's pointless even trying to debate when Normans spoiling every discussion with his stupid obsession.

Your jealous. Your obsession is WRK.

[dave.j]

1355520250[/url]' post='6893291']

Who the f**k do you think you are Norman, dishing out questions like some 3rd rate Paxman?

The fckin gall of the man, asking questions on a discussion forum!

[dave.j]

1355521608[/url]' post='6893378']

Excellent candidate for irritating P & B poster of th year 2012 awards though

Can you be short listed if only 3 folk vote for you?

I can think of 3 who would be miles ahead!

[dave.j]

1355521114[/url]' post='6893344']

Just to prove the point that not all Rangers fans are mindlessly buying shares without asking questions, here is a Rangers fans who asks a lot of pertinent questions without the jizzfest that P & Bers seem incapable of refraining from

Having perused the prospectus in the attempt to convince myself to part with some cash and once again become a shareholder in Rangers Football Club I finished reading it distinctly underwhelmed. I can't become a shareholder in RFC because I'm not being offered the opportunity to, rather I'm being offered shares in some holding company seemingly for no other reason than because some "investors" want to maximise tax breaks for themselves, how fucking ironic is that? Far from answering questions for me the prospectus just raises lots more.

The list of shareholdings larger than 3% reminds us once again that Green has failed to come good on his promise back in June to reveal just who exactly owns us. Blue Pitch Holdings, Margarita Funds Holdings Trust and Norne Ansalt together presently hold 23.34% of the equity yet we haven't got a clue as to who are the ultimate beneficial owners of those shares are. For a considerable period Green was quite content to let speculation that Blue Pitch Holdings was a vehicle under the control of Arif Naqvi of Abraaj Capital persist until he had to release a statement presumably at Mr Naqvi's behest in which Green claimed that a Middle East lawyer called Mazen Houssami was the "legal beneficiary" whether that is the same as beneficial owner is highly doubtful.

We now come to the post flotation list of shareholders and at first glance it seems impressive and comforting and is adorned with the names well known and well respected in the investment business. However things can be deceptive and in this case it is not clear if those companies are investing their own pooled funds or simply acting as "fronts" for their individual private clients which if is the case does not afford the same amount of comfort.

On page 7 it tells us loans totalling £1.815m were received and repaid which seems strange since through the period in question Green kept telling us we were "debt free" it seems he was being a little mendacious.

Item C.5 on page 8 consigns another of Greens favourite claims, "no one will be able to own more than 10%", firmly into the pile marked bullshit because the "Ordinary Shares are feely transferable and there are no restrictions on transfer". Anyone can buy them in whatever amount they want.

Section D Risks fairly standard legalese but one point does stand out that's that "The RFCL Group and the Rangers Group may require additional capital in the longer-term to fund development, but this might only be available on onerous terms", it seems that we do not have a full range of business banking facilities and it doesn't look like we will have for a while given the current economic background. Let's hope that whatever the onerous terms are that they're nowhere near as onerous as a short term loan from Imran "makes Wonga blush" Ahmed (more about that later). There is also a warning that future issues of equity could dilute ownership and depress the market price of shares, given the relatively few options available for raising capital I'll be amazed if there isn't a further issue of shares a couple of years (if that long) down the line despite of the claim that there are no current plans to issue more equity.

E2.a Gives some basic detail about where some of the flotation money will go, upgrading Ibrox £5.5m, land acquisition £4.5m, other projects £3m and an undisclosed amount for "general working capital purposes", ( I assume £3.5m will be to cover this seasons predicted loss, perhaps nearer £4m if we're once again burden with Goian's wages). Of the Offer monies (the fans shares) £3.5m of additional upgrades to Ibrox and another £2m for unspecified projects is earmarked.

The paragraph titled "Exposure to litigation" raises other risk factors the main one being in relation to the purchase of assets from the administrators of RFC plc, the Directors while conceding that any action raised could have "a material adverse effect" with regards to "business growth, prospects, sales, results of operations and/or financial condition" and that any claim may not be covered by insurance, are of the opinion that time has mitigated the risk and any material liabilities would be known by know. The potential impacts of the consequences of the Directors opinion being wrong are such that the possibility cannot afford to be discounted.

The following paragraph covers much the same ground as the one above but more specifically relating to the possible actions of the liquidators of RFC plc under the Insolvency Act 1986 to challenge the acts of the administrators (Duff & Phelps) once again the Directors are of the opinion that everything is in order however concede that should such an action occur it would have an impact on the management's ability to properly run the business, given the relatively recent appointment of the liquidators and the potentially lengthy job ahead of them I'm not convinced enough to share the Directors apparent confidence.

A list of the Company's Directors, Secretary and Advisers, shows nothing of real significance save maybe the fact that Brian Stockbridge is doubling up as Finance Director and Company Secretary. Also we have London PR advisers Newgate Threedneedle Limited which perhaps means the parting of the ways with Media House in what has been a long and incredibly rewarding relationship for Media House and Jack Irvine but one of such infinitive sorrow for those of us who hold the club close to our hearts.

The section entitled Key Strengths and Opportunities gives an insight as to what the Directors think may be an avenue of additional income. The Rangers brand. A worldwide network of around 600 supporters clubs from Sydney to Los Angeles then it goes on to say 416 registered supporters clubs worldwide (wasn't aware there were any unregistered clubs!) with over 17,500 members registered to purchase match tickets. 46 clubs in North America alone and the Club has over 43,00 registered supporters under the age of 18. The Directors expect us to remain loyal to the brand in future.

Then there comes a paragraph entitled, The Club's capacity for commercial activities in addition to gate receipts, or more simply more ways to milk the fans. They hold a database of over 715,000 registered fans with over 170,000 active email addresses and nearly 165,000 active mobile numbers, the Directors think there's scope for using the database more efficiently which probably means we should prepare for an avalanche of PPI spam emails and texts.

Then a paragraph about the Club's playing squad. The Directors and the manager intend the club to return to top league Scottish football and to European Football as soon as possible, a quick glimpse at the bonuses they've (potentially) awarded themselves should remove any lingering doubts about that particular claim. We have apparently maintained a strong squad which the manager believes will be sufficient to secure promotion and also progress in cup competitions, we'll I think there's a touch of Mandy Rice Davies to that particular claim. Both the Directors and the manager are pleased with the performance of the squad so far this season, alas I don't share that view but if I were looking forward to picking up the wads of filthy lucre that they will be then I'd have a smile on my face too.

Then we come to Media opportunities but alas no sign of the £100m pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that Green previously espoused. Rangers.co.uk gets 800,000 hits a month with over 437,000 unique users a month making it Scottish Footballs highest ranking site (though the terminally deluded would have you think it was the Rangers Tax Case site (haha!) or it's b*****d offspring the Irish Football Prefect or whatever it's called) whilst not being overawed by these figures I am nonetheless quite impressed but remain sceptical of how they will transform into cold hard cash. There are 280,000 followers on the official club Facebook page again quite impressive even for a Facebook phobic like myself. Taken alongside the clubs new ability to broadcast matches overseas and with the clubs existing brand the Directors believe modern media creates significant opportunities for the company which have previously been underutilised, that claim probably has some merit but again I doubt it will transform into lots of cold hard cash and it will be considerable time before it approaches the reputed £31m Murray screwed out of NTL.

Stadium, facilities and hospitality. 50,987 capacity stadium owned by the club and contains shop, restaurants, function rooms and hospitality suites, up to 1500 hospitality punters on a match day. Will be used in the 2014 Commonwealth Games for the Rugby Sevens, that'll work wonders for the pitch surface eh? Within 6 months of the float the shop will relocate to Edmiston House along with a bar, Ticket Office will move into the shop, I don't think there's a Bear who doesn't welcome that. Intended investment in Murray Park but no details (fix the previous storm damage perhaps?)

Page 67 is rather illuminating. For some bizarre reason Brian Stockbridge provide a £50k loan for the period of 24 hours. It also shows why the original Sevco 5088 Limited was abandoned for Sevco Scotland Limited.

"On 11 May 2012, Imran Ahmad, a director of RFCL, provided a loan of £200,000. £178,000 was repaid on 15 August 2012 and £22,000 was converted into ordinary share capital of RFCL. Imran Ahmad also received an arrangement fee of £50,000 relating to this loan."

The first couple of dozen times I read that I kept waiting for Jeremy Beadle to jump out from behind the sofa then it dawned on me Jeremy is no more and what I was reading was not a joke! (It's far from funny but it's certainly one of the biggest piss takes ever!)

So in exchange for £200k for 3 months and 4 days Mr Ahmed receives £28k cash profit and 2,200,000 shares valued at £1.54m, It would take IBM's Big Blue to work out the interest rate on that.

I hereby offer the Rangers board an identical loan on identical terms any time they so desire.

It's also strange why Imran Ahmed is not on the Board of Directors but I suppose he can console himself with the £350k annual salary plus bonus plus expenses (all nicely backdated to 12 June) for the newly created post of Commercial Director, perhaps by not sitting on the board certain disclosures that would have had to be made no longer don't?

Green despite his oft repeated claim to be paid only with shares after a successful flotation has in fact been paid since 12 June, a basic salary of £360k plus benefits plus expenses (plus £1600 per month for accommodation with all utilities and Council Tax thrown in) a bonus of 100% gross salary for getting out of the SFL even via a league reconstruction!, a 10% post IPO shareholding and options to the value of twice his salary, Green's mouth is practically welded to the tit of RFC and is milking it for all it's worth.

Brian Stockbridge on a basic £200k plus benefits plus expenses, (he too gets a 100% bonus in the event we play in a different league) and a nice £500k worth of share options.

Malcolm Murray on £50k per annum from 14 June but rising to £60k plus all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses reasonably and properly incurred fron the IPO.

The non-executives Hart, Cartmell, and Smart are on £40k, Smith on £50k plus all receive all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses reasonably and properly incurred.

That's one hell of an expensive board for a 3rd Division Scottish football club, frankly it's an absurd amount of remuneration and out of all proportion to turnover.

Plenty money going to be made out of RFC but it doesn't look like it'll be Joe Punter making it but once those transients who have suckled from the tit of RFC ride onto the sunset their trouser pockets stuffed full of filthy lucre what then for Rangers?

Paste "didn't read" gif, here.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

We are going round in circles, you are not interested in debating, let me solve that for you

.

Very much interested in debate, and extremely interested in one point which you continue to avoid.

If the assets included "the club", what value was attached to "the club"? Where does "the club" appear in the list of the new company's assets?

ETA: Can't find a valuation in either of the two posts you made of other peoples' work in order to make it look like you're more than a cheerleader for anything which makes you think your club is still alive, and an abuser of anyone who feels differently.

The writers of those two pieces do actually seem to have taken some time to look a bit closer at Charlie's Future Vision. I would suggest you do the same, but I might as well try to teach my dog to play poker.

Edited December 14, 2012 by WhiteRoseKillie

[dave.j]

1355522138[/url]' post='6893416']

This is not a discussion thread, this is a slag Rangers thread, if I want to discuss buying shares then it truly the last place I would go to ask for advice

And on days like today it is a GIRUY thread

GIRUY thread?

To paraphrase the The Rangers fans:

You can post whatever shite you think is proof, to us, your club is dead.

[Monkey Tennis]

and another from the same site, showing that we have some interesting debate going on despite the stereotypical brush that everyone wants to paint us with

Fair play - you've proved that genuine debate can exist among Rangers fans. What site did these posts appear on?

[dave.j]

1355522316[/url]' post='6893433']

Well that is because he spends 99% of his time on a anti rangers thread agreeing on a pile of shite with other anti rangers minded folk like you, if he was brave enough to start talking about his own supposed team then I am sure his fellow fans would quickly tire of him

Says the guy averaging 21 posts a day!

[thelegendthatis]

Excellent candidate for irritating P & B poster of th year 2012 awards though

Come on Tedi, all this false modesty.

You know you are a shoo in for this award.

3073 posts since the end of July 2012. 5 months = 600 posts per month. 30 days per month = 20 posts per day.

And only 50% are repeats.

Keep this level of activity up for 2013 and you will arguing with yourself. Oh, hang on, you are doing that already.

(Sorry should have read the previous post. It is 21 a day. )

Edited December 14, 2012 by thelegendthatis

[thenolly]

and another from the same site, showing that we have some interesting debate going on despite the stereotypical brush that everyone wants to paint us with

First of all I suppose it's worth mentioning that I won't be contributing to this current IPO. This is mainly because I'm a young man with little control over my own finances currently and I already have a season ticket very generously paid for. £500 is not cheap for most people so it's unlikely to be happening for myself this time, unless I win a something on a scratch card or lottery tomorrow!

However, that is personal circumstance and something we all need to consider. What I have considered, because this share issue is very important for the club, is the prospectus. The aim of the prospectus is of course to sell the idea of buying shares in Rangers and answering pertinent questions. My own conclusion is that 122 pages manages to do that very well.

First of all, there is a definitive list of shareholding that shows as promised and hoped for (by many anyway) we aren't under any huge majority control from one owner. The mention of 'trust' and 'holdings' may possibly be something to put people off. However, the shareholding of these investment groups is not big enough for there to be any huge influence, and frankly some individuals will not want their name in the public domain for the sake of a small stake. I consider such a stand understandable when you look at the amount of obsession there is surrounding Rangers out there.

Further shareholders and investors show that there are some very reputable and serious names in there, testament to the long attempts by Charles Green and co to encourage investment and very good proof in my opinion that this is not just some con.

The prospectus also provides transparency about questions over loans and dividends. There have been short term loans which I assume were to help with the funding shortfalls when the club was initially purchased, after all it must be remembered season tickets did not start selling until August and under administration the club had run of money. Dividend policy is also outlined and shows that it is not guaranteed at the moment but will be considered for shareholders in the future. To my mind this is just evidence of the successful attempts to attract institutional investors. We need to face reality and accept that unless these people are fans of RFC then they are unlikely to want involvement without good opportunity of return. There is possible rise in their share values but that will depend on many factors, even simply that they can't know who will necessarily buy them. Dividends will provide a decent form of security for them and of course, how much they get will depend on how well the business is going. For the business to thrive Rangers need to keep on progressing on the park, where we are can only work for so long especially with our very demanding fan base. But at the same time we have to be run with much greater financial prudence than we have been in the last decade or so, it may not be liked that businessmen can benefit from that but it's also the only way we can assure Rangers are around for the next 140 years.

The prospectus has a very important line as well on page 15 that outlines, if the SPL title stripping farce goes ahead, "the legal basis for any such sanctions" will be "strongly challenged by the RFCL Group or the Rangers Group." Green has talked about this before but to see it confirmed further in the prospectus is very encouraging. The whole idea of honours being taken away is important to us as fans because it's what our club has achieved but clearly it is also important to the business side as it devalues the product that RFC is. If the whole thing is as much a kangaroo court as we all expect I look forward to the response.

The size of our club has always been known and acknowledged by anyone with a fair mind and the prospectus further outlines just how good the Rangers brand is and can be. The size of our wonderful worldwide fan base is out lined by the high number of supporters clubs, online users and subscribers. The media opportunities are talked about through more figures of things such as the facebook page and mentioning the broadcasting of all matches live abroad. As the prospectus says it seems clear that there is much revenue to be created through further use of online media, and investment in the share issue can help develop this. The same section mentions the potential of our magnificent stadium; I talk more about this in the next paragraph.

Arguably the most important section in the prospectus outlines where the IPO money is in fact going to go. There have been some fears so I find it very encouraging that the money is all going to go into the club, even if there are some dividends much later down the line that will only happen if this share issue cash can help Rangers thrive. The first part mentioned is upgrades to Ibrox stadium, which seems to come to around £9 million. This may seem to be rather a lot of money but I think it is absolutely essential for us to maximise the potential of our biggest asset. Now I love Ibrox, we all do. But over the last few years, most likely due to our lack of spare cash, it has been neglected badly and in many ways fallen into a shoddy state. As well as upgrades there are plenty of repairs and licks of paint that need done, as I said Ibrox really should be our biggest asset so money spent on it is money well spent. There is of course the planned moving of the ticket office into the current club shop and Edmiston House being used as the new location for the shop and other things, most likely bars and/or restaurants. These plans are excellent and will provide much easier use of these facilities for fans as well as bringing in yet more revenue. Just think how great it'll be to just be across from Ibrox having a bite to eat rather than in Govan somewhere, or having to get something inside the stadium? The use of the share issue cash in these projects is spot on to help develop the club in the long term. Further uses are shown to be "other identified projects" which shows that we are not standing still in ways to improve the club; details of these will no doubt come out when further on. "General working capital purposes" is another place where the money will go and this will relate to an inevitable increase in our wage bill and need for transfer fees as we aim to get back to where we belong. The club being back at the top and in Europe is outlined in the prospectus as the aim, our lower league journey should be over before we know it and cash flow situations at football clubs can be interchangeable, so working capital is vital, the IPO will provide extra to go along with the usual sources such as season ticket sales.

The wages of our board staff as well as team manager are also outlined. The wages are rather basic with some good bonuses added in, a positive for me as this will continue to motivate all the people concerned to keep working as hard as possible for Rangers. The cash paid to people like Green, Stockbridge and Ahmed to manage Rangers as a proper business will be well worth it in comparison to packets that have been dripped out to average and/or injured players the last few years, and of course you're going to have to help motivate with decent wages. Ian Black wouldn't be here if we had not offered him much more money than he would likely get elsewhere, same for likely most of our summer signings. And when you think about it, can Green be begrudged a happy retirement if he leaves Rangers in a healthy state having come in with us at our lowest ebb?

The prospectus outlines the visions and plans for Rangers going forward and they will see the club thrive on and off the park. It's an exciting time, I outlined at the start of this article why I won't be investing right now but I certainly hope to in the future. The opportunity to be a further part of the adventure going forward is fantastic one.

A very good an honest post Tedi, even if you did "Borrow it"

[youngsy]

GIRUY thread?

To paraphrase the The Rangers fans:

You can post whatever shite you think is proof, to us, your club is dead.

But you see,that's the whole point. Your opinion or indeed anyone elses' opinion on the club continuity does not matter one iota. All Rangers and the support are interested in is that the club historical continuity from 1872 going forward has been recognised in a football context by the appropiate football authorities,FIFA,UEFA,SFA and SFL in order that the past successes are recorded alongside the future success of the club in a continuous timeline in the annals of Scoottish football. Which it obviously has been recognised as such by those appropiate footballing authorities.

[Henrik's tongue]

And on days like today it is a GIRUY thread

Administration. Liquidation. 3rd Division. Joke Manager.

Aye. GIRFUY