dee eff cee Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 The name's important. I suggest something aspirational: Fans To Own Football I would suggest: Ordinary Fans' Gesture To Football I am sure there are lots more suggestions out there.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulloch Gorum Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 You see all these Rangers fans - the ones quoted in the BBC story today, for instance - insisting that we need them, and that even if they were in the third division this would kill Scottish football. Just how low would Rangers need to be shown to have sunk for them to accept the need for severe punishment? What more, what worse things could be revealed to make them say "fair cop". Is there anything at all that is beyond the pale (pun only partially intended)? Is there nothing that can't be swept under a rug because we "need" them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethead Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 thelegendthatis makes a great point, but can we organise something like that on an open forum? For me targets would be 1. UEFA. Platini says he wants financial fair play. Let's see if we can provoke comment from him 2. the print meeja. If the whole debacle since valentines day has taught us anything it is that the era of 'succulent lamb' reporting has to end. The automatic two pages Rangers/ two pages Celtic in the sun/daily record/evening times needs to be changed to reporting on merit. Nonsense like the DR's Bomber says sign.. has to stop. 3 radio meeja - how the feck can Billy Dodds remain a BBC summariser/pundit? Let's push to get some of those discredited off the main radio programmes. Let's also have more guys like Tam Cowan telling it as it is. 4. SPL - Doncaster has to go. We have to get shot of him. 5. The Grand Diddy Alliance - how can we organise that? A strong voice that can be quoted in the meeja always available for quotes that can get across a positive future for Scottish Fitba without any OF taint. Post him a DVD of the documentary, copies of statements released from Doncaster, SPL, D&P, the press, anything and everything bad, untruthful etc and a link to this thread. A letter explaining what's happening in the style of the Declaration of Arbroath i.e. For so long as one hundred of us remain alive, we will never submit to the ruling of our game by the Donkeymaster etc. etc. Can we go back to the old 1st and 2nd Divisions now, the SPL is a corrupt failure and is ruining the game in this country. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p&b is a disgrace Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Post him a DVD of the documentary, copies of statements released from Doncaster, SPL, D&P, the press, anything and everything bad, untruthful etc and a link to this thread. A letter explaining what's happening in the style of the Declaration of Arbroath i.e. For so long as one hundred of us remain alive, we will never submit to the ruling of our game by the Donkeymaster etc. etc. Can we go back to the old 1st and 2nd Divisions now, the SPL is a corrupt failure and is ruining the game in this country. Theres a feedback form on UEFA.com - Give Michel some feedback - bombard the wee fucker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbhoy Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 One thing about the EBT's that has seemed to be lost or not known !. "IT'S A PENSION FUND" in all but essence. It's a bumper pay out for when you actually retire at a lower TAX threshold because you would be a pensioner. You can take out a loan to be paid back before the releasement of funds at retirement,you can pay for hospital/medical treatment and a few others but not the emptying of the fund. The HMRC have been chasing Rangers for the abuse of the system WHY ?. Because there is NO money in the retirement fund ! it has all gone out as TAX free loans never to be paid back !. What's the point of having a pension fund with NO money ! this is why they HAVE been found guilty of TAX evasion ! and are they appealing it on the grounds the loans will be paid back for when the first employee has retired ?. This then would confirm the existence of Players duel contracts for services rendered to Rangers as there is NO money in the fund. Rangers EBT system is not a loophole but a deceptive maneuver in moving cash around to deliberately avoid paying the HMRC due TAX. Why are Rangers calling the system a loophole ? it's clearly not a loophole if you have no money in the fund and players were taking out their EBT share money in loans whilst they were wearing a Rangers jersey ...... where's their retirement payout then for when they actually retire ?. Yes Rangers said they had an EBT system in place in their accounts and how much went in ... that's true ! but all the above proves they were deliberately gaining players who would not have signed because they would have received maybe 10's of thousands a year less if they were registered properly.NO money in the fund. Especially for "No 8" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wragg Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug #Rangers creditors should expect a CVA proposal late tomorrow or early Monday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I would suggest: Ordinary Fans' Gesture To Football I am sure there are lots more suggestions out there.... Again, why be defined by them? Would the print/radio meeja allow a spokesman for a group calling themselves 'diddy or diddies' ? Is the word seen as improper? Is there an alternative? Guys like Dingwall are getting air time as they're seen as being quasi-respectable but there's posters on this site, guys on twitter and blogging that could do 'Scotland Tonight' or news vox pops and destroy the 'football needs rangers' argument pretty easily. A decent umbrella group could really change the debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) Ok, first draft and I don't know how to pin this stuff yet being new and all that but......feel free to rip it to shreds I hope it conveys most of the feelings except the obvious 'I hope they die' one which generally would mean the main context of the letter would be largely ignored (which it might be anyway) but if its about sheer weight of numbers sending the same general feeling to sponsors, here goes..... To whom it may concern, RE: Sponsorship of Scottish Football Association Competitions 2012/13 You have doubtless been unable to escape the ignominy of the recent crisis in Scottish football, single handedly attributable to one member club. We are, of course, referring to Rangers Football Club and the fraudulent business activities and sporting and moral bankruptcy shown over the past decade that has so publicly come to light in recent times. Rangers Football Club may yet re-emerge from their current situation, having shed millions of pounds in debt and liabilities with scant regard for the law of the land, many small businesses and the British taxpayer - with not one word of contrition for their actions. No apologies have yet been offered, only a call to arms and veiled threats, remarkably from their own club ambassador Mr. Jardine. The unwavering belief from inside Ibrox is that they, as a club, have done no wrong. This reprehensible attitude towards the wider issues; financial, sporting and moral, has led to our correspondence to you as a potential sponsor of Scottish Football. This letter represents the true feelings of hundreds of thousands of fans whose collective voices have not accurately been portrayed through the assembled media in Scotland. It has been forwarded to the governing bodies the Scottish Football Association, Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football League and circulated to all clubs, supporters groups and football forums, with one notable exception. Collectively, fans have agreed upon this peaceful plea to potential sponsors. There will be no marches upon your stores, no boycotts of your products or threats to your staff and no demands for special treatment. We only wish to impress upon you the following view. Sponsorship of a system that allows one institution to so blatantly flaunt their corporate duties and go unpunished, to the detriment of others, would surely be damaging to your own corporate brand image in the longer term. By disregarding the toxicity and stigma attached to Rangers as they stand, and offering sponsorship under those terms, you would send a clear message to millions of Scottish consumers and the watching world that your brand is happy to associate itself with the actions of Rangers Football Club, should they be allowed to retain their position in Scottish Football. We understand that you have no say in this matter and that this is decision for the relevant authorities to deal with however, we would ask you to consider your position before making your final decision. The only way you can have a clear conscience in any sponsorship agreement will be if Rangers are fairly punished for their actions whilst attempting to remunerate the creditors fairly and in good time. An overwhelmingly majority of fans polled (96%) oppose immediate re-entry to the top flight and expect Rangers to admit to their failings, starting again from the bottom with humility to rebuild their business and their brand, if indeed that is possible. We can only hope when considering your potential sponsorship of Scottish Football Competitions for season 2012/13 that you share our views. Yours sincerely A Scottish football fan and consumer, (Name) Edited May 24, 2012 by chrismcarab 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR96 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Excuse me ignorance on the issue, but are the creditors likely to accept the CVA? I want them to go bust so much, just want to know the chances of it happening! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fife Saint Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 How about Football Against Non-Named Investment + Equity Schemes? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Sorry but this is a long post. Born of frustrations with how Scottish football is run from long before Rangers went into administration, but made worse, much worse, from 14th February onwards. This frustration is due to the punters (of which I am one) being treated with contempt and taken for granted by those who manage the messages we get, on the back of succulent lamb or otherwise. On P&B we say what we want, but we have no teeth as a group. The BBC programme last night was significant in the continuing Rangers saga. Hard evidence produced (which would have been doubly approved by BBC lawyers) with more to come. I know some on here were disappointed, but this programme was after all for the average viewer who has little knowledge of the saga to date, unlike most P&B members. But none the less it was totally damning. P&B members on this forum I see as a diverse group of football supporters, some supporting particular clubs, many not. I think the P&B discussions have managed to push and support certain topics which many in the football world would like to have seen go way. But it is too late now for them to try to brush it under the carpet. At P&B we have been dependent on therangerstaxcase.com and Paul McConville's blogs for detailed and insightful analysis, and Alex Thompson despite his struggles at times is a substantial voice for all of us, as he can take the right questions to those in positions of power and authority. The question is what do we do about it? What do we want to do? We can talk amongst ourselves, be outraged, get exciting about progress, become frustrated, feel cheated and irritated at being treated as inconsequential idiots by authorities and media pundits alike (even those who don't have an EBT account in their back pocket). But what can we do? My thoughts, and these are my thoughts only are: 1. Create our own voice We need an organised voice. We can achieve this by having a small group of members (a committee by any other name) here who are prepared to collate views, agree them with members and then work to create the change we want. Then deliver this message through carefully chosen spokesmen (see item 2) and other methods. This is not about grinding personal axes but giving a voice to a substantial and important group who are not currently getting a hearing. 2. Communicate what we want It is then essential to take those wishes to the key decision makers or players in the Rangers story. The best people for this would be a couple of our elected representatives. I would suggest one MSP and one MP. One based in Edinburgh one in London. I have my thoughts on who would be interested and would fit the bill. The method would be to decide exactly what we would want them to do, topic by topic. Often a letter from an MP can make things happen that would take us months. I am sure we could also line up a PR company to ensure press coverage of our aims and the changes we want to see. (free of charge).<br style="mso-special-character: line-break"> At the minute we are driven by people like Doncaster, Paul Murray, the administrators as they each have the voice and the contacts in the media, which they use to influence public opinion, sometimes with the truth, sometimes with half truths, other times quite misleading. We need the same access to allow us to communicate with authorities, supporters and the public. 3. What changes do we want? This is the best time to let our wishes be known. Significant change will be happening regardless over the next month or so in particular. Duff & Duffer being challenged through the media or the courts, creditors being asked to make decisions, SFA having to address the growing list of things to deal with about Rangers, the SPL chairmen voting about in or out, UEFA will have an interest, and the wider supporter population wanting something better for Scottish football. We can wait to see what others decide, or we publicly get what we want on the table first. The 'projects' I (repeat I) would like to see as the initial targets are: 1. Campbell Ogilvie is a part of the EBT mess from his time at Rangers, which I believe creates a conflict of interest in his current position as President of the SFA. He can be in his office while next door a group are discussing what to do about double contracts, Rangers paying HMRC, how EBTs were used. People in such meetings must think 'will I pop in next door and ask Campbell?' He should go on gardening leave while the SFA obtains the evidence they need and creates the vehicles within the SFA to make the proper decisions. Putting him on full pay is no problem, but he must not be operating in his office at this critical stage. He should also pay the tax on his EBT as if it had been treated as salary. 2. SPL chairmen We must tell them what decision we want which will penalise Rangers for their behaviour to date and will warn other clubs of the consequences of trying anything similar in the future. And no kicking into the long grass requests for information from Duff & Duffer which just allows the SPL to stall any decision. 3. The SFA need to be supported and encouraged to make hard decisions. They have done this extremely well to date (to my surprise) but this must continue. 4. HMRC must be encouraged to take a lead in dealing with the current administrators and ensure that the Rangers administration or liquidation is used to maximize return to the honest taxpayers, but also to obtain the detailed evidence required to subsequently deal properly with any wrongdoing. 5. The Police. Encourage them to move in to take a positive role in creating a better form of governance of football clubs in Scotland with the powers they have from company law by flushing out and penalising those who have abused their positions of trust. There are potentially many more, these are mine, but ideally we can agree projects and hoped for outcomes democratically. We don't have many chances like this to make a positive difference. To create a better and more honest future led from the grassroots. With easy access to e mail, using web sites, blogs, online petitions and group marketing all the tools are available to us at no cost. We have the option of being on the side-lines while others decide what is best for us, what we are allowed to do and say or how to behave. We can approve or otherwise but organisations can force their wishes on individuals. Or we can take this opportunity to take the initiative as a group, create our own voice and make sure we help make something better than we would otherwise. Would appreciate all thoughts and comments on whether this could be a way ahead - or not. Your name sir is a testimony to this post - legendary. I'm in, what can I do to help? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambopompey Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Pretty sure Davis was on the list.....yup Steven Davis Northern Ireland midfielder and club captain. Played more than 140 times, scoring 17 goals for Rangers. £600,000 Yes Copied and pasted from BBC website.... Last two parts there are amount earned and if they had a side contract. i only looked for a few names, fat sally, durrant, mcculloch, the beast, the cardigan and not seeing those names felt some may have been omitted for whatever reason 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Again, why be defined by them? Would the print/radio meeja allow a spokesman for a group calling themselves 'diddy or diddies' ? Is the word seen as improper? Is there an alternative? Guys like Dingwall are getting air time as they're seen as being quasi-respectable but there's posters on this site, guys on twitter and blogging that could do 'Scotland Tonight' or news vox pops and destroy the 'football needs rangers' argument pretty easily. A decent umbrella group could really change the debate. I agree, but it's a lot easier to define ourselves by what we're not rather than by what we are. We're against bigotry, cheating and greed. We're against people ignoring their local teams and spending their money to make a couple of big teams in another town even richer. Diddies is just another way of defining ourselves by the OF. I personally don't like the term, but am struggling to come up with anything better. I'll keep trying... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 A word of caution! Chuckling at todays events while brushing my teeth I made the rash decision to stare straight into the mirror and say: "cockwomble, cockwomble, cockwomble" And who should appear, none other than SPL chairman Neil Doncaster ! He then proceeded to do absolutely f**k all. After a few awkward moments he buggered off mumbling something about acting in the best interests of blah blah blah........ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p&b is a disgrace Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 One thing about the EBT's that has seemed to be lost or not known !. "IT'S A PENSION FUND" in all but essence. It's a bumper pay out for when you actually retire at a lower TAX threshold because you would be a pensioner. You can take out a loan to be paid back before the releasement of funds at retirement,you can pay for hospital/medical treatment and a few others but not the emptying of the fund. The HMRC have been chasing Rangers for the abuse of the system WHY ?. Because there is NO money in the retirement fund ! it has all gone out as TAX free loans never to be paid back !. What's the point of having a pension fund with NO money ! this is why they HAVE been found guilty of TAX evasion ! and are they appealing it on the grounds the loans will be paid back for when the first employee has retired ?. This then would confirm the existence of Players duel contracts for services rendered to Rangers as there is NO money in the fund. Rangers EBT system is not a loophole but a deceptive maneuver in moving cash around to deliberately avoid paying the HMRC due TAX. Why are Rangers calling the system a loophole ? it's clearly not a loophole if you have no money in the fund and players were taking out their EBT share money in loans whilst they were wearing a Rangers jersey ...... where's their retirement payout then for when they actually retire ?. Yes Rangers said they had an EBT system in place in their accounts and how much went in ... that's true ! but all the above proves they were deliberately gaining players who would not have signed because they would have received maybe 10's of thousands a year less if they were registered properly.NO money in the fund. Especially for "No 8" This has been covered at length. EBT's are fine if operated correctly. Any payments into the trust must be discretionary. Evidence is that in these cases payments were contractual - and therefore PAYE & NIC's is due at the time of payment ( in the same manner as if it was paid through their salary/wages ). Rangers have not deducted PAYE & NICs from these payments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiled jambo Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Ok, first draft and I don't know how to pin this stuff yet being new and all that but......feel free to rip it to shreds I hope it conveys most of the feelings except the obvious 'I hope they die' one which generally would mean the main context of the letter would be largely ignored (which it might be anyway) but if its about sheer weight of numbers sending the same general feeling to sponsors, here goes..... To whom it may concern, RE: Sponsorship of Scottish Football Association Competitions 2012/13 You have doubtless been unable to escape the ignominy of the recent crisis in Scottish football, single handedly attributable to one member club. We are, of course, referring to Rangers Football Club and the fraudulent business activities and sporting and moral bankruptcy shown over the past decade that has so publicly come to light in recent times. Rangers Football Club may yet re-emerge from their current situation, having shed millions of pounds in debt and liabilities with scant regard for the law of the land, many small businesses and the British taxpayer - with not one word of contrition for their actions. No apologies have yet been offered, only a call to arms and veiled threats, remarkably from their own club ambassador Mr. Jardine. The unwavering belief from inside Ibrox is that they, as a club, have done no wrong. This reprehensible attitude towards the wider issues; financial, sporting and moral, has led to our correspondence to you as a potential sponsor of Scottish Football. This letter represents the true feelings of hundreds of thousands of fans whose collective voices have not accurately been portrayed through the assembled media in Scotland. It has been forwarded to the governing bodies the Scottish Football Association, Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football League and circulated to all clubs, supporters groups and football forums, with one notable exception. Collectively, fans have agreed upon this peaceful plea to potential sponsors. There will be no marches upon your stores, no boycotts of your products or threats to your staff and no demands for special treatment. We only wish to impress upon you the following view. Sponsorship of a system that allows one institution to so blatantly flaunt their corporate duties and go unpunished, to the detriment of others, would surely be damaging to your own corporate brand image in the longer term. By disregarding the toxicity and stigma attached to Rangers as they stand, and offering sponsorship under those terms, you would send a clear message to millions of Scottish consumers and the watching world that your brand is happy to associate itself with the actions of Rangers Football Club, should they be allowed to retain their position in Scottish Football. We understand that you have no say in this matter and that this is decision for the relevant authorities to deal with however, we would ask you to consider your position before making your final decision. The only way you can have a clear conscience in any sponsorship agreement will be if Rangers are fairly punished for their actions whilst attempting to remunerate the creditors fairly and in good time. An overwhelmingly majority of fans polled (96%) oppose immediate re-entry to the top flight and expect Rangers to admit to their failings, starting again from the bottom with humility to rebuild their business and their brand, if indeed that is possible. We can only hope when considering your potential sponsorship of Scottish Football Competitions for season 2012/13 that you share our views. Yours sincerely A Scottish football fan and consumer, (Name) Nicely written and agree with the sentiment. Just one minor comment. Rather than say "fraudulent business activity" I would use the word dubious. Fraud is a very serious criminal accusation and until someone is convicted, or at least charged with fraud (hopefully only a matter of time) it may be best not to make such accusations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p&b is a disgrace Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Nicely written and agree with the sentiment. Just one minor comment. Rather than say "fraudulent business activity" I would use the word dubious. Fraud is a very serious criminal accusation and until someone is convicted, or at least charged with fraud (hopefully only a matter of time) it may be best not to make such accusations. I'd also replace the word "institution". Rangers are NOT a fucking institution! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Nicely written and agree with the sentiment. Just one minor comment. Rather than say "fraudulent business activity" I would use the word dubious. Fraud is a very serious criminal accusation and until someone is convicted, or at least charged with fraud (hopefully only a matter of time) it may be best not to make such accusations. duly noted, I will make the amendment now and wait for more to come in, unless the BTC comes in tomorrow of course!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I'd also replace the word "institution". Rangers are NOT a fucking institution! pick your replacement this is a collective effort...... keep it clean though! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GirondistNYC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 1337898370[/url]' post='6269904']One thing about the EBT's that has seemed to be lost or not known !. "IT'S A PENSION FUND" in all but essence. It's a bumper pay out for when you actually retire at a lower TAX threshold because you would be a pensioner. You can take out a loan to be paid back before the releasement of funds at retirement,you can pay for hospital/medical treatment and a few others but not the emptying of the fund. The HMRC have been chasing Rangers for the abuse of the system WHY ?. Because there is NO money in the retirement fund ! it has all gone out as TAX free loans never to be paid back !. What's the point of having a pension fund with NO money ! this is why they HAVE been found guilty of TAX evasion ! and are they appealing it on the grounds the loans will be paid back for when the first employee has retired ?. This then would confirm the existence of Players duel contracts for services rendered to Rangers as there is NO money in the fund. Rangers EBT system is not a loophole but a deceptive maneuver in moving cash around to deliberately avoid paying the HMRC due TAX. Why are Rangers calling the system a loophole ? it's clearly not a loophole if you have no money in the fund and players were taking out their EBT share money in loans whilst they were wearing a Rangers jersey ...... where's their retirement payout then for when they actually retire ?. Yes Rangers said they had an EBT system in place in their accounts and how much went in ... that's true ! but all the above proves they were deliberately gaining players who would not have signed because they would have received maybe 10's of thousands a year less if they were registered properly.NO money in the fund. Especially for "No 8" I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you may want to spend some time reading the Rangers Tax Case or Scots Law blog. This stuff is complicated and there have been some very smart dedicated people doing the groundwork in untangling this for a long time. The Bears are stuck floundering trying to figure this stuff out from first principles and based on imperfect information because they think these sites are part of the great Opus Dei/Aberdeen/SNP conspiracy but there is no reason for the rest of us not to save some time and do a bit of directed research before posting. It never hurts to check out informed alternative views like Hillier's as well. Informed posts are also more likely to piss off No.8 when he is in Mr. Hyde mode! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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