Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Monkey Tennis]

Ah but you see, whilst you can argue this all you like, the reality is that the law takes precedent over opinion, so the result on both FTT and UTT is what it is. That's the rules.

Youngsy mate, I know what the verdict was - I can read.

Your fondness for a black and white world, one where yes or no answers suffice, is legendary on here, but the world we both live in is more subtle, more nuanced.

It means that we can discuss issues.

Some of us.

[williemillersmoustache]

I think the legality of the scheme makes it perfectly acceptable.

If they had lost and scheme deemed illegal then I would be saying the exact opposite and admitting I got it wrong, it is just a pity that your underlying feelings about a football team wont allow you to do the same.

What's your view on Goodwillie. Is he a rapist / sexual predator / ne'er do well or an all round good egg who you would happily introduce to your daughter?

[Monkey Tennis]

I think the legality of the scheme makes it perfectly acceptable.

If they had lost and scheme deemed illegal then I would be saying the exact opposite and admitting I got it wrong, it is just a pity that your underlying feelings about a football team wont allow you to do the same.

That's daft though Ted.

The judgement reached has legal significance obviously, but needn't dictate the views of either of us on what is and is not 'right'.

[Jacksgranda]

I don't see what all the hoo hah is about tax avoidance - if I could find (legal) ways of avoiding tax, I would. Morality has nothing to do with it.

It's up to the legislators to close down these tax avoidance schemes if they think they deserve to be closed down - who thought them up in the first place? - and it's up to the tax authorities to collect tax as per the legislation.

I realise most folk have no option but to pay tax under the PAYE system, and have absolutely no chance of saving money under a tax avoidance scheme, which appear to be designed for businesses rather than individuals. I doubt if all the beneficiaries of the Rangers EBT scheme would have thought of an EBT if it hadn't been suggested to them by Rangers, although I'm sure they (the beneficiaries) all had pretty clued up accountants dealing with their tax affairs.

[AberdeenBud]

Out of interest do you still think that the mainstream media should have ran with articles from RTC and other discredited bloggers?

Some of the RTC stuff, yes. Everyone else probably not. Can it really be any worse than the sort of shite we have to read from people like Goram and Hately. If the media had actually been more open and forthcoming about Rangers financial problems it may not have been so simple for this grand fooling of all the fans that youngsy talks of to take place.

For all the rush to attack the RTC blog it was still miles ahead of the game in predicting Craig Whyte was a wrong un and the administration and liquidation of oldco. No doubt he committed the same crime of hubris he attacked Minty Moonbeams for though.

[Monkey Tennis]

I don't see what all the hoo hah is about tax avoidance - if I could find (legal) ways of avoiding tax, I would. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Couldn't agree less.

Fortunately as you say, most of us have no opportunity to avoid what we owe.

That way, society can function.

[williemillersmoustache]

Shite footballer who will do nothing to aid your teams inability to finish above Motherwell in the league.

Ha ha your probably right there. But please, in your own time, answer the question. Footballing aside, is he actually a lovely chap since he was found not guilty?

[Jacksgranda]

Couldn't agree less.

Fortunately as you say, most of us have no opportunity to avoid what we owe.

That way, society can function.

So if instead of paying £500.00 a month tax there was a scheme in operation wherebye you would pay only £250.00, you would forego it?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

I don't see what all the hoo hah is about tax avoidance - if I could find (legal) ways of avoiding tax, I would. Morality has nothing to do with it.

It's up to the legislators to close down these tax avoidance schemes if they think they deserve to be closed down - who thought them up in the first place? - and it's up to the tax authorities to collect tax as per the legislation.

I realise most folk have no option but to pay tax under the PAYE system, and have absolutely no chance of saving money under a tax avoidance scheme, which appear to be designed for businesses rather than individuals. I doubt if all the beneficiaries of the Rangers EBT scheme would have thought of an EBT if it hadn't been suggested to them by Rangers, although I'm sure they (the beneficiaries) all had pretty clued up accountants dealing with their tax affairs.

Morality has everything to do with it. Those who wish to minimise their contribution to Society, while continuing to enjoy the benefits, are the lowest of the low.

[stonedsailor]

I think the legality of the scheme makes it perfectly acceptable.

If they had lost and scheme deemed illegal then I would be saying the exact opposite and admitting I got it wrong, it is just a pity that your underlying feelings about a football team wont allow you to do the same.

I am not sure that's true. Look at celebrities like Jimmy Carr etc who were shamed by public opinion into repaying tax from ebts. I hardly think a hatred of Rangers had any influence in the public perception of EBTs.

I personally think if you can get away with it go for it but the majority of the public think they are abhorrent for the way they were left open for abuse and public opinion has forced action. Jimmy Carr paid his back and used the situation for money spinning laughs, Rangers rolled over and died giving us loads of laughs and spinning money for the spivs.

[Monkey Tennis]

Legal significance

The judgement says that everything that you were brainwashed into believing over the past few years was a lie.

Don't worry I would struggle coming to terms with the fact that I had been so easily duped too.

I don't think I was brainwashed into anything Ted. I expected the judgement to go the same way as David Murray did, but I don't think I claimed certainty.

If you want to do one of your wee searches to prove otherwise though feel free.

You might unearth something.

[youngsy]

Youngsy mate, I know what the verdict was - I can read.

Your fondness for a black and white world, one where yes or no answers suffice, is legendary on here, but the world we both live in is more subtle, more nuanced.

It means that we can discuss issues.

Some of us.

But the fact of the matter here is one that the EBT case has been found in favour of the PLC at both tiers of the judicial process and to keep arguing against the judgement smacks of bitterness on your part and indeed on many others.

Also as Jacksgranda has stated, people in all levels of society look to retain as much of their earned cash as possible, if that means going down the route of using a scheme that reduces the amount of tax being paid then such schemes will be utilised, that's the way of human nature and this outrage of yours will not change such a thing.

Now answer this; as HMRC have had judgement on this case go against them twice, do you, as this great moralist where tax issues are concerned, believe that HMRC should pursue this case for a third time, an action which would cost the taxpayer more significant expense, you can give this as yes or no or a full statement, floors all yours.

[williemillersmoustache]

Well since I have never met Mr Goodwilly then I would tell my daughter(s) to stay away from strange men that they know nothing about.

Avoiding Aberdeen in general would be a good start.

As long as she's not a cheviot she'll be fine.

Now stranger danger aside, is he a great bloke who's name has been besmirched by a witch hunt or a vile sex offender who is lucky to still be sucking free air? Which is it?

[Bookies Love Me]

The HMRC case wasn't really going to affect the latest incarnation.

But, it was good for a laugh and a wind-up whilst it lasted, and it has now given Ted a perfect opportunity to deflect like f*ck away from the present problems.

Anyway, how is the club/company/travelling circus fairing now?

How's the season ticket sales?

Have the loans been paid yet?

Where's the money going to come from for them to last the season?

Is fan ownership still an option?

Is Benny really chained in a cellar and never sees the light of day?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

But the fact of the matter here is one that the EBT case has been found in favour of the PLC at both tiers of the judicial process and to keep arguing against the judgement smacks of bitterness on your part and indeed on many others.

Also as Jacksgranda has stated, people in all levels of society look to retain as much of their earned cash as possible, if that means going down the route of using a scheme that reduces the amount of tax being paid then such schemes will be utilised, that's the way of human nature and this outrage of yours will not change such a thing.

Now answer this; as HMRC have had judgement on this case go against them twice, do you, as this great moralist where tax issues are concerned, believe that HMRC should pursue this case for a third time, an action which would cost the taxpayer more significant expense, you can give this as yes or no or a full statement, floors all yours.

Allow me to jump in here. Given that both levels of tribunal have found liability - i.e. that HMRC did not, no matter how you and your would love to rewrite History, have the judgment go totally against them - then of course they should pursue the case.

Although their original target has written itself into the history books through an entirely separate criminal act, it is important that the authorities be seen to clamp down on such avoidance - not least because, as had been previously stated, those who indulge in this behaviour are overwhelmingly those who can well afford to pay their dues.

[MikeyWellFan]

Would all the berrs on here feel the same if it was Celtic that had used these?

Be honest.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Would all the berrs on here feel the same if it was Celtic that had used these?

Be honest.

Behave yersel', Mikey!

[youngsy]

Allow me to jump in here. Given that both levels of tribunal have found liability - i.e. that HMRC did not, no matter how you and your would love to rewrite History, have the judgment go totally against them - then of course they should pursue the case.

Although their original target has written itself into the history books through an entirely separate criminal act, it is important that the authorities be seen to clamp down on such avoidance - not least because, as had been previously stated, those who indulge in this behaviour are overwhelmingly those who can well afford to pay their dues.

Very good but no matter how you and others try to spin this both tiers found for the PLC, that is irrefutable. As for stating 'another criminal act' i assume your speaking of Whyte. However as this EBT case was found to be legal, it can't be looked on as criminal, except by those who are unable to get over their own bitterness.

[Jacksgranda]

Allow me to jump in here. Given that both levels of tribunal have found liability - i.e. that HMRC did not, no matter how you and your would love to rewrite History, have the judgment go totally against them - then of course they should pursue the case.

Although their original target has written itself into the history books through an entirely separate criminal act, it is important that the authorities be seen to clamp down on such avoidance - not least because, as had been previously stated, those who indulge in this behaviour are overwhelmingly those who can well afford to pay their dues.

I don't mind paying my dues, but if there is a means of reducing those dues I would use it. (It hasn't affected me much these last couple of years as I haven't earned enough to pay tax.) If said means are then closed down, fair enough. You'd think, given the amount of lawyers and accountants in Parliament, they'd be able to do something about it, wouldn't you? I wonder why they haven't.

[youngsy]

Would all the berrs on here feel the same if it was Celtic that had used these?

Be honest.

If the scheme was found to be legal, then personally i would have no problem.