Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Pretty simple really. Northern Ireland's history has nothing to do with "a Ramsdens Cup first round tie". You know this of course. What you want to ask, really, is why Gers fans sing loyalist songs. The answer is simple. Many of us see ourselves as Protestant and Unionist. Many like to celebrate the revolution of 1688/1690. We also despise IRA supporters/sympathisers. Both are reflected in some of our songs. I think it's perfectly ok for people to reflect political views through football clubs/songs/chants. Trying to deny that because it has nothing to do with a pawn shop is idiotic. How much of a gloss was that? It's this kind of thing that I mean Kincardine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 No self-delusion but feel welcome to disagree. It isn't an abuse. I'm happy to uphold The Williamite Revolution as a 'good thing'. I am happy that some of our fans celebrate this. I am aware enough to know that sometimes this descends to abuse and I hate that and apologise for it. However, it should be OK to sing some 'Orange' songs without being called a bigot. No I'm not, And this kind of thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 It's this kind of thing that I mean Kincardine. That seems like a pretty good post and I can't see you or anyone having an issue with it. I especially liked when I said, "I think it's perfectly ok for people to reflect political views through football clubs/songs/chants" There is, of course, nothing determinative about my comment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I think that's an excellent post and a point well made. I agree with you. It is thoroughly bad to hate 'the papes'. I denegrate that side of our support - and I'm very aware that it exists and I feel shamed by it. However, I am very happy to support a team whose fans are, generally, Protestant and Unionist, though not exclusively so. I am very happy to sing The Sash, No Surrender or, my favourite, Build My Gallows. They may well be pish but it doesn't make me a bigot. Sure get rid of the 'hate' songs but there is legitimacy and health in affirming Loyalist Protestantism. This too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) You challenged my assertion that you'd previously connected support for Rangers with a religious background and a political standpoint. I've very clearly established here that you have. Just admit that. Edited May 23, 2015 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You challenged my assertion that you'd previously connected support for Rangers with a religious background and a political standpoint. That I am a more than a wee bit 'Orangey' has never been up for debate. I have never apologised for this and don't see the need to do so now. We started this part by me saying, "I am also perfectly happy that none of those views need inform any of the other and live with them as comfortably independent opinions." All you have shown is that I haven't a single issue with people expressing Loyalist views and that bigotry and hatred should be eschewed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Offt, what a skelping. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 That I am a more than a wee bit 'Orangey' has never been up for debate. I have never apologised for this and don't see the need to do so now. We started this part by me saying, "I am also perfectly happy that none of those views need inform any of the other and live with them as comfortably independent opinions." All you have shown is that I haven't a single issue with people expressing Loyalist views and that bigotry and hatred should be eschewed. Yet you denied a connection between politics, religion and support for a football club. I've shown, as I claimed, that you'd clearly linked those in the past, a suggestion you'd attacked. Of course such opinions can be held independently of each other. However, they clearly overlap for you. I've not accused you of bigotry here, or suggested you've no right to political opinions I don't share. You invited me though, to back up the claim that you'd connected various sentiments in the past and I think we can both accept that I've done so. Others can interpret such a connection if they wish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You invited me though, to back up the claim that you'd connected various sentiments in the past and I think we can both accept that I've done so. Others can interpret such a connection if they wish. Absolutely not. You have done nothing to show that I regard 'Rangers/Protestant/Unionist' as dependent. Quite the opposite. What is common is not the same as what is determined. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I am perfectly happy to have a go at this. I am also perfectly happy to use The P Word. The traditions are those of prowess. We have always sought to be a successful team and have proven to be so over 143 years. As for, "standards of behaviour and values" one can't comment on that without being a coward and shirking the obvious link to our acquired Protestant association. I'm not sure when it happened? Maybe in the 1920s? What followed was a strong association between Rangers and Scottish Protestant values of hard work, honesty, diligence and duty. I haven't a single issue with that as long as we acknowledge that a. other groups could have similar values and b. we don't discriminate. So quick sum: "the traditions, standards of behaviour and values" of Rangers are wedded in our fortitude and our desire for the Reformation values of rectitude and honesty. Here's a very much more recent example of that same connection being made, terribly explicitly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Here's a very much more recent example of that same connection being made, terribly explicitly. I like the bit where I said: I'm not sure when it happened? Maybe in the 1920s? What followed was a strong association between Rangers and Scottish Protestant values of hard work, honesty, diligence and duty. I haven't a single issue with that as long as we acknowledge that a. other groups could have similar values and b. we don't discriminate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Absolutely not. You have done nothing to show that I regard 'Rangers/Protestant/Unionist' as dependent. Quite the opposite. What is common is not the same as what is determined. Aw, come on. Don't insult the intelligence of both of us and anyone looking in, by pretending that you've not connected them. As I've said, of course such things needn't be interdependent. We can find examples from Thatcher to Bennett to prove that. Your problem is that you weaved them together, before pretending that you'd never do such a thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I like the bit where I said: I'm not sure when it happened? Maybe in the 1920s? What followed was a strong association between Rangers and Scottish Protestant values of hard work, honesty, diligence and duty. I haven't a single issue with that as long as we acknowledge that a. other groups could have similar values and b. we don't discriminate. I liked that bit too, but it's not especially relevant to our discussion. As I said, I'm accusing you of nothing here, other than making an explicit connection yourself, that you subsequently denied might even exist at all. If you wish to argue that in fact you're a tolerant soul, I'll listen and maybe even make concessions, but it's a separate debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accietilleyedye Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Aw, come on. Don't insult the intelligence of both of us and anyone looking in, by pretending that you've not connected them. As I've said, of course such things needn't be interdependent. We can find examples from Thatcher to Bennett to prove that. Your problem is that you weaved them together, before pretending that you'd never do such a thing. He isn't insulting our intelligence, we can all see him for the fool he is and are laughing hard at his pathetic attempt to get out of the whole he has dug for himself -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 He isn't insulting our intelligence, we can all see him for the fool he is and are laughing hard at his pathetic attempt to get out of the whole he has dug for himself Well put, and kudos, also, to MT for giving the bitter old Tory more attention than he merits. Liked the "accidental" typo, btw - gives The_KinCarCrash something to focus on other than yet another epic failure to look halfway intelligent. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I liked that bit too, but it's not especially relevant to our discussion. As I said, I'm accusing you of nothing here, other than making an explicit connection yourself, that you subsequently denied might even exist at all. All of your quotes have simply gone to show that I am reasonable, open-minded and even-handed. That I am unafraid of using "The P Word" in the context of Rangers is to my credit. I can hardly ask for candour from other posters if I don't show it myself. That there is an association between Rangers and Protestantism is beyond doubt. All you have done is illustrate that I have banged on about this for years and always given a 'get out' clause in my posts. You had one task which was to show, not association, but dependency. You have conspicuously failed to do this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 All of your quotes have simply gone to show that I am reasonable, open-minded and even-handed. That I am unafraid of using "The P Word" in the context of Rangers is to my credit. I can hardly ask for candour from other posters if I don't show it myself. That there is an association between Rangers and Protestantism is beyond doubt. All you have done is illustrate that I have banged on about this for years and always given a 'get out' clause in my posts. You had one task which was to show, not association, but dependency. You have conspicuously failed to do this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 All of your quotes have simply gone to show that I am reasonable, open-minded and even-handed. That I am unafraid of using "The P Word" in the context of Rangers is to my credit. I can hardly ask for candour from other posters if I don't show it myself. That there is an association between Rangers and Protestantism is beyond doubt. All you have done is illustrate that I have banged on about this for years and always given a 'get out' clause in my posts. You had one task which was to show, not association, but dependency. You have conspicuously failed to do this. That was not my task and each of us knows it. This really isn't a big deal mate. You said something which I challenged by referring to previous remarks of yours. You in turn launched a challenge by asking me to support my comments. I've conspicuously managed to do so. As I said, none of this matters very much, but you'd look less foolish and forlorn by acknowledging the actual passage of events. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Monkeys PMd himself some hauners lol -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Monkeys PMd himself some hauners lol What? What does that even mean? I genuinely don't know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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