xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 So we get to keep all of our land? Nice one. And *some* of our sea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I quite fancy claiming Berwick and Carlisle. After all, if the well established sea border is "up for grabs", then as you say, why not the land? Don't forget Doncaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleyjaggi Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 And they can't "change" the border. There is no border, as far as international law is concerned. We'd be establishing a border between two sovereign states. The existing border drawn for domestic purposes by Westminster isn't binding. So no plausible reason why we can't claim Berwick? No, but I'd start the negotiations by claiming everything north of Cambridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I love it when our pet lawyers play the "its all up for grabs!" card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 And they can't "change" the border. There is no border, as far as international law is concerned. We'd be establishing a border between two sovereign states. The existing border drawn for domestic purposes by Westminster isn't binding.This is the key point here. So no plausible reason why we can't claim Berwick?There are several plausible reasons. For one, those living in Berwick aren't part of the population being consulted in the referendum. If they were, then there would be a strong case for them being able to become part of the new sovereign state called Scotland. And *some* of our sea!We don't "keep" anything. We don't have sea just now. Not under international law, anyway. Which is what sovereignty is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I love it when our pet lawyers play the "its all up for grabs!" card.No one has said "it's all up for grabs". The potentially disputed sea territory is certainly not "all of it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 This is the key point here. There are several plausible reasons. For one, those living in Berwick aren't part of the population being consulted in the referendum. If they were, then there would be a strong case for them being able to become part of the new sovereign state called Scotland. We don't "keep" anything. We don't have sea just now. Not under international law, anyway. Which is what sovereignty is about. We don't have "land" just now, not under international law, anyway. I think we can just annex some of the north of England. Its up for grabs it seems according to you and HB. No one has said "it's all up for grabs". The potentially disputed sea territory is certainly not "all of it". Oh, so we definitely get to keep *some* of our sea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 We don't have "land" just now, not under international law, anyway. I think we can just annex some of the north of England. Its up for grabs it seems according to you and HB.If you can reach an agreement with the rest of the UK to bring Berwick under Scottish jurisdiction, great. Good luck with that. You should probably let them vote in the referendum though.Oh, so we definitely get to keep *some* of our sea?It's not "our" sea until it's signed and sealed and we're a sovereign state. The very notion of "our" sea doesn't exist until we are a sovereign state. It is literally incoherent to talk about "keeping some of our sea". I've already explained to you why these words are lazy and that you shouldn't use them. So don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 What legal experts? And they can't "change" the border. There is no border, as far as international law is concerned. We'd be establishing a border between two sovereign states. The existing border drawn for domestic purposes by Westminster isn't binding. It would be up to both sides to negotiate an equitable solution. It will no doubt form part of wider negotiations on other matters also, not be considered in isolation. Two professors with great knowledge in the field http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070 My favourite part "You might say we should use that line. The interesting thing is, from the economic point of view, it does not make much difference because there are just a handful of fields, and not very important ones now, between the median line and the line north of Berwick. "Although lawyers could have a long debate about it, in terms of economics, it does not make all that much difference." Basically lawyers and pseudo lawyers like Ad Lib can navel gaze about where the line is drawn but ultimately it isn't that important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 It's not "our" sea until it's signed and sealed and we're a sovereign state. The very notion of "our" sea doesn't exist until we are a sovereign state. It is literally incoherent to talk about "keeping some of our sea". I've already explained to you why these words are lazy and that you shouldn't use them. So don't.Really? Why does everyone else get to use those terms except on here? I've heard plenty of Unionists, and hell, even Lib Dems, referring to "Scottish waters". So no, I'll use that term if I want. It is our sea, and if we are extra nice, and roll over like a good little dog, the Lib Dem government might even let us keep some of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Will any lochs be affected? I quite like Loch Earn and all this uncertainty is troubling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Really? Why does everyone else get to use those terms except on here? I've heard plenty of Unionists, and hell, even Lib Dems, referring to "Scottish waters". So no, I'll use that term if I want. It is our sea, and if we are extra nice, and roll over like a good little dog, the Lib Dem government might even let us keep some of it!They use "Scottish waters" as short-hand for "for domestic purposes" or "would be sovereign waters, assuming the line is drawn as it is domestically". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckled tangerine Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 #10035 Can we still have new year loony dooks in the sea that isn't ours in an independent Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 They use "Scottish waters" as short-hand for "for domestic purposes" or "would be sovereign waters, assuming the line is drawn as it is domestically".Right, and so I guess I am using "our sea" as short hand for "what would be sovereign waters, assuming the line is drawn as it is domestically". Problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Right, and so I guess I am using "our sea" as short hand for "what would be sovereign waters, assuming the line is drawn as it is domestically". Problem?No, because I object to the use of the shorthand. It is semantically inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 No, because I object to the use of the shorthand. It is semantically inaccurate.Tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Will Deep Sea World be on the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Will Deep Would Be Sovereign Waters, Assuming the Line is Drawn as it is Domestically World be on the table?Not all of it, just any bits likely to contain oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Not all of it, just any bits likely to contain oil. Cephalopodic uncertainty The worst kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Cephalopodic uncertainty The worst kind. The kind of uncertainty that grows arms and legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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