KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Is there anything stopping the world from being cleared of debt and everything just starting again? Who is the debt payable to? Will China take a haircut for the likes of the USA without getting their pound of flesh? Unlikely I'd say. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, as economics aren't my strong point but if EVERY country relinquished debt then no-one would be losing anything, surely? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 In theory, you could have some form of debt forgiveness or a completely changed way of valuing currency. Countries are buying up gold with gusto. China and Russia are hoovering up as much as is available and the bulk of the newly mined stuff. Germany has asked the US for its gold reserves back. Paper money is a figment anyway unless it is backed up with something of value and without tangible assets you really have nothing at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, as economics aren't my strong point but if EVERY country relinquished debt then no-one would be losing anything, surely? Yeah that would be right. Why would less indebted nations want to? They are in a powerful negotiating/political position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supras Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Of course national debt can never be wiped, don't be so silly. It's as likely as everyone relinquishing all their possessions and "starting again". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 In theory, you could have some form of debt forgiveness or a completely changed way of valuing currency. Countries are buying up gold with gusto. China and Russia are hoovering up as much as is available and the bulk of the newly mined stuff. Germany has asked the US for its gold reserves back. Paper money is a figment anyway unless it is backed up with something of value and without tangible assets you really have nothing at all. It's funny how something that is scarce has the most value, such as gold. No idea why anyone would attach value to something which isn't abundant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Of course national debt can never be wiped, don't be so silly. It's as likely as everyone relinquishing all their possessions and "starting again". Sorry.. Just a thought.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Paper money is a figment anyway unless it is backed up with something of value and without tangible assets you really have nothing at all.And yet, you worship it like a god. Weird. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, as economics aren't my strong point but if EVERY country relinquished debt then no-one would be losing anything, surely? Government debt is owned to more than just other governments. It's owed to private sector wealth holders such as pension funds, hedge funds, commercial and investment banks and so forth. The whole point of government debt is that it leverages private sector wealth through incentives where taxation has been unable to afford the necessary liquidity to government to invest in services and infrastructure. If you were to cancel all government debt, not only would countries that had been more prudent lose out relative to other governments (that's unfair), but it would also decimate the financial sector and the future planning of ordinary people who were forward thinking enough to set money aside for their retirement. Now of course selective debt relief for developing countries can be a good idea: it allows the third world to adopt low tax regimes to encourage foreign investment in infrastructure for them to grow and to compete in the global market, rather than screwing the world's poorest over ever higher marginal tax rates. But anyone seriously suggesting debt cancellation en-masse is fair, practical or an effective solution to anything has absolutely zero clue about economics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 It's funny how something that is scarce has the most value, such as gold. No idea why anyone would attach value to something which isn't abundant. Wow. Economics 101. If there isn't much of something, but lots of people want it, they will value it more highly than something there is a lot of that very few people want. Because most people want to maximise their preferences. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 It's funny how something that is scarce has the most value, such as a Dundee win. Quite agree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 It's funny how something that is scarce has the most value, such as gold. No idea why anyone would attach value to something which isn't abundant. Wow. Economics 101. If there isn't much of something, but lots of people want it, they will value it more highly than something there is a lot of that very few people want. Because most people want to maximise their preferences. I know that idea. But doesn't it seem a bit odd? Why not give value to things that are in abundance and then allow more people to have things of value in their possession? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Is there anything stopping the world from being cleared of debt and everything just starting again? It could never happen. Money is created out of thin air by the banks in the form of loans, and is removed from the money supply by interest. The only way to solve the problem in the short term is to create new and bigger loans. Hence the term "bubble". Unless the planet is infinitely sized and resourced. The system is doomed to collaspe. They are solutions, but it will either take the mother of all crashes or someone as radical (and deeply unpopular) as Thatcher to implement it. The safe bet is the former. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I know that idea. But doesn't it seem a bit odd? Why not give value to things that are in abundance and then allow more people to have things of value in their possession? They wouldn't be very valuable, as everyone would have some. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Was Margaret Thatcher the lasting legacy of punk? http://louderthanwar.com/im-having-nightmares-was-margaret-thatcher-the-lasting-legacy-of-punk-rock/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I know that idea. But doesn't it seem a bit odd? Why not give value to things that are in abundance and then allow more people to have things of value in their possession? They wouldn't be very valuable, as everyone would have some. But the value attached to scarce things is just a human construct, it has no basis is reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 But the value attached to scarce things is just a human construct, it has no basis is reality. Try that line out during a famine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipperyP Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) hmm, I don't see why they should have covered it any more or less than any other BBC region? She was the UK prime minister after all Eh, it's headline news in every other region(country and not just in the UK) apart from Scotland...where is was about 3rd or 4th down headline in small print. It's has been completely washed aside, as they know it can have persecution if they go negative or positive, there is clearly an agenda at the BBC Scotlandshire offices. Edited April 10, 2013 by SlipperyP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I know that idea. But doesn't it seem a bit odd? Why not give value to things that are in abundance and then allow more people to have things of value in their possession? It's about incentives. If you create a society which values only things which are in abundance, there will be no motive to use all resources for absolute gain. I suppose you could create a society that has been brainwashed to place high economic value on, say, oxygen, nitrogen, water, grass, desert, rock and mud, but it wouldn't be one that makes very much food, develops, well, any electronics, builds many houses, or generally try to make, well, anything, more abundant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 But the value attached to scarce things is just a human construct, it has no basis is reality. This is unadulterated nonsense. There might be an argument to the effect that particular price signals are distorted by particular policies and actions (see for example in the tax haven thread my explanation of why assets worth billions in the British Virginia Islands under a system of tax avoidance may not in fact be worth as much relative to all other assets in a system where taxation is more like our own). But that's not the same as saying that things which are scarce have only artificial value attached to them. Unless you are to go as far as to say that all value is artificial and that we need to liberate ourselves from the false consciousness that food and shelter are, like, good things that aid our survival and make human existence worthwhile, you're dribbling on a bib here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 But the value attached to scarce things is just a human construct, it has no basis is reality. This is unadulterated nonsense. There might be an argument to the effect that particular price signals are distorted by particular policies and actions (see for example in the tax haven thread my explanation of why assets worth billions in the British Virginia Islands under a system of tax avoidance may not in fact be worth as much relative to all other assets in a system where taxation is more like our own). But that's not the same as saying that things which are scarce have only artificial value attached to them. Unless you are to go as far as to say that all value is artificial and that we need to liberate ourselves from the false consciousness that food and shelter are, like, good things that aid our survival and make human existence worthwhile, you're dribbling on a bib here. What would happen if everything was made free? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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