The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I'll try and have a go at unpacking this "That's the point of the sovereignty of the crown in parliament notion within English legal tradition (Scots law is often said to differ a bit about where sovereignty ultimately lies with the people being claimed to be ultimately sovereign, but it makes little practical difference). The idea is precisely that parliament rather than the monarchy ultimately holds all the power and can do as it pleases in legislative terms" The crown/parliament settlement is the same in both countries as we had a unified monarchy in 1603. The guts of the agreement (since 1688) is that parliament hold sway in both countries. You agree with this. You just use the unfortunate phrase, "sovereignty of the crown in parliament" which makes no sense. can do as it pleases in legislative terms with no US style written constitution to firmly entrench individual rights and freedoms as a counterbalance This is a fallacy. We haven't, of course, a single written document called, "Britain's Constitution". Nor should we. We do, though have a combination of written law, opinions and precedents which make up our constitution. Has the whole Magna Carta celebration passed you by? Britain has a whole series of rights constitutionally enshrined and Parliament bypasses those at its peril. The UK predates the Enlightenment, so it missed out on that sort of stuff in constitutional terms at least until the ECHR was signed up to and the authority of the court in Strasbourg was recognised. One delightful thing about The UK is that it informed and enhanced The Enlightenment through our thorough commitment to The Reformation. Especially in Scotland it would be crass to try and separate Enlightenment and Reformed ideals. Summary? We have a robust constitution. That is a product of our rich history. The ECHR adds to it but it is crass to say 'nothing happened' between 1688 and the British-led initiative to establish the ECHR. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Skidmarks Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I'll try and have a go at unpacking this "That's the point of the sovereignty of the crown in parliament notion within English legal tradition (Scots law is often said to differ a bit about where sovereignty ultimately lies with the people being claimed to be ultimately sovereign, but it makes little practical difference). The idea is precisely that parliament rather than the monarchy ultimately holds all the power and can do as it pleases in legislative terms" The crown/parliament settlement is the same in both countries as we had a unified monarchy in 1603. The guts of the agreement (since 1688) is that parliament hold sway in both countries. You agree with this. You just use the unfortunate phrase, "sovereignty of the crown in parliament" which makes no sense. can do as it pleases in legislative terms with no US style written constitution to firmly entrench individual rights and freedoms as a counterbalance This is a fallacy. We haven't, of course, a single written document called, "Britain's Constitution". Nor should we. We do, though have a combination of written law, opinions and precedents which make up our constitution. Has the whole Magna Carta celebration passed you by? Britain has a whole series of rights constitutionally enshrined and Parliament bypasses those at its peril. The UK predates the Enlightenment, so it missed out on that sort of stuff in constitutional terms at least until the ECHR was signed up to and the authority of the court in Strasbourg was recognised. One delightful thing about The UK is that it informed and enhanced The Enlightenment through our thorough commitment to The Reformation. Especially in Scotland it would be crass to try and separate Enlightenment and Reformed ideals. Summary? We have a robust constitution. That is a product of our rich history. The ECHR adds to it but it is crass to say 'nothing happened' between 1688 and the British-led initiative to establish the ECHR. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The Magna Carta, a bit like the literature of Shakespeare and Dickens, is over-rated in terms of its impact in the big scheme of things. Something each generation learns about from the one before and then passes on uncritically to the next out of force of habit as part of the shared set of myths of the nation. It actually very much makes sense to separate Enlightenment ideas from those of the Reformation given it very much revolved around separating church from state. That is something that has yet to be achieved in the UK and was at the root of the failure to comfortably accommodate the island of Ireland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Oh you boys! Wheesht. LTL and I are having a conversation! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The Magna Carta, a bit like the literature of Shakespeare and Dickens, is over-rated in terms of its impact in the big scheme of things. That may well be true but it's a document enshrined in our constitution. I simply referenced it since you talked about The US's constitution. It actually very much makes sense to separate Enlightenment ideas from those of the Reformation given it very much revolved around separating church from state. You may do so but it would be facile. Martin Luther's idea of 'two states' set the 'separation' ball rolling and rightly so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Are there per chance fukwit bigots trying to justify fukwit bigots marching about streets waving banners about killing people of a certain religion on this thread? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 That may well be true but it's a document enshrined in our constitution. I simply referenced it since you talked about The US's constitution. You may do so but it would be facile. Martin Luther's idea of 'two states' set the 'separation' ball rolling and rightly so. It makes sense in a purely scottish context but given that the English reformation combined the roles of head of the church and head of state into one office it's not that convincing in a UK context. You also have the counter examples for the French enlightenment happening despite the failure of the reformation to take hold there 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 No Orange walk in Glasgow this weekend at all.Ok then,shower of aresholes walking through glasgow,that covers you all 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 There's an irony in the parades happening in Scotland on a day when the people of the Republic of Ireland delivered a far louder "f**k you" to the Catholic Church than the Apprentice Boys could dream of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) It makes sense in a purely scottish context but given that the English reformation combined the roles of head of the church and head of state into one office it's not that convincing in a UK context. The saving grace of England's reformation (quite a different beast to Scotland's) is that Samuel Rutherford's tract, Lex, Rex ultimately held sway. That our HoS is also head of England's church is unfortunate and impossible to justify. You also have the counter examples for the French enlightenment happening despite the failure of the reformation to take hold there The Enlightenment in France may have produced good food, a few wee books and some nice diatribe but utterly fucked the country up - including pogroms against The Huguenots. While The Enlightened French were running around killing folk we Scots were producing ground-breaking science, technology and philosophy. Edited to add: Of course, John Calvin was French. Edited May 24, 2015 by The_Kincardine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The saving grace of England's reformation (quite a different beast to Scotland's) is that Samuel Rutherford's tract, Lex, Rex ultimately held sway. That our HoS is also head of England's church is unfortunate and impossible to justify. The Enlightenment in France may have produced good food, a few wee books and some nice diatribe but utterly fucked the country up - including pogroms against The Huguenots. While The Enlightened French were running around killing folk we Scots were producing ground-breaking science, technology and philosophy. Edited to add: Of course, John Calvin was French. While we were running aroung the globe slaughtering everyone and stealing their wealth and resources. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While we were running aroung the globe slaughtering everyone and stealing their wealth and resources. I think you'll find the Spanish and the Portuguese beat us to it. Not to mention the Vikings The French, Belgians and Dutch also joined in, as did the Germans. The Italians were a wee bit late to the party, although the Romans had their go a lot earlier than we did. Since then the Russians, Chinese and Americans have all had a shottie, not to mention most of the African countries taking turns to invade each other. Although that's probably our fault, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) The saving grace of England's reformation (quite a different beast to Scotland's) is that Samuel Rutherford's tract, Lex, Rex ultimately held sway. That our HoS is also head of England's church is unfortunate and impossible to justify. The Enlightenment in France may have produced good food, a few wee books and some nice diatribe but utterly fucked the country up - including pogroms against The Huguenots. While The Enlightened French were running around killing folk we Scots were producing ground-breaking science, technology and philosophy. Edited to add: Of course, John Calvin was French. You seem to have your chronology of French history somewhat muddled up there. Edited May 25, 2015 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Koop Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The Magna Carta, a bit like the literature of Shakespeare and Dickens, is over-rated in terms of its impact in the big scheme of things. Something each generation learns about from the one before and then passes on uncritically to the next out of force of habit as part of the shared set of myths of the nation. It actually very much makes sense to separate Enlightenment ideas from those of the Reformation given it very much revolved around separating church from state. That is something that has yet to be achieved in the UK and was at the root of the failure to comfortably accommodate the island of Ireland. Magna Carta = sign this or we'll fucking have you, your majesty. His majesty thinks, nice chaps, those barons. A few concessions and I get to keep my head. Then the barons go off and spread the word of 'liberty' and 'rights' while the hired hands in frocks keep the plebs scared shitless that any ideas above their station - including their 'rights' - leads down the path to where the geezer with the horns and tail does his business. Rinse and repeat, replacing men in frocks with David Starkey. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Koop Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 There's an irony in the parades happening in Scotland on a day when the people of the Republic of Ireland delivered a far louder "f**k you" to the Catholic Church than the Apprentice Boys could dream of. These demonstrations of fealty must sit well with Her Maj. I'm sure she's thrilled by that explosive mixture of high camp, religion, martial music and an undercurrent of booze fuelled violence. Surely she tunes in to BBC NI's coverage of The Twalfth. In other news, ISIL leaders received a cable from the Almighty a few days ago, thanking them for demolishing those big piles of stones he's been terrified of for centuries. The marriage equality vote in Ireland was certainly a slap in the face for the church. Then again, marriage is older than churches and civil marriages are a harder skelp and they've been around a lot longer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Could you give a greater explanation of such banners? or better still provide some examples in photos? Pick anyone you want , they all celibrate a sectarian war over 300 years ago that resulted in Non Protestants being treated no better than animals with no rights or lands for generations. I'm well aware the bigot appologists will try to present it as something else but I like most on here cant wait till ALL these bigotfests are banned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Are there per chance fukwit bigots trying to justify fukwit bigots marching about streets waving banners about killing people of a certain religion on this thread? Could you give a greater explanation of such banners? or better still provide some examples in photos? Pick anyone you want , they all celibrate a sectarian war over 300 years ago that resulted in Non Protestants being treated no better than animals with no rights or lands for generations. I'm well aware the bigot appologists will try to present it as something else but I like most on here cant wait till ALL these bigotfests are banned. That's a "No", then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 That's a "No", then. That'll be a "Yes" then...like I said pick any banner or song. The Apprentice Boys are a sectarian organisation, A Protestant Fraternity .founded by protestants for protestants 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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