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Scottish Independence

xbl

By xbl
in The Politics Forum

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Posted
Posted

“@newsundayherald: Our #indyref special story eight - it's no joke when you can't find a comedian to back the union”

“@newsundayherald: Our #indyref special - story six: Pro-union campaign 'destroying equal UK'”

“@newsundayherald: Our #indyref special - story five: is this a stitch-up? Union backs No vote after hearing just one side of the debate”

“@newsundayherald: Our #indyref special - story four: SNP slams Foreign Office for silence over UK-Spain talks”

“@newsundayherald: Our #indyref special - story two: top Euro official says Scotland will add clout to the EU when it is allowed entry”

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vikingTON

vikingTON

Posted
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Highlands and Islands benefitting from renewables investment and expertise brought about by the oil and gas industry in partnership with government. Hydro and wind are significant beneficiaries.

Erm no, not to the extent of the tens of billions of pounds directly taxed by oil revenue from the North Sea since the 1970s, nor did taxation directly determine the perfectly obvious fields of development in hydro, wind, and above all, tidal energy in Scottish waters or highlands. Regardless of who controlled the oil resource, island Scotland would still be in a box position for industry partnership. You have rather bizarrely conflated *any* investment with *all* investment,

That leaves us with the rest of your straw man argument - Scotland's urban core has indeed been redeveloped; having been utterly demolished alongside the traumatic, utter destruction of its outer towns and suburbs, with the connivance of a London-centric government since 1983-1990. Glasgow as well as Manchester have since become gentrified with token Commonwealth Games events, Edinburgh, major transport investment has been upheld to the same extent as south of the border. Yet funnily enough utter dross like the Falkirk Wheel is not enough to justify continued London governance over fundamentally Scottish resources. We're not fucking stupid, despite your laughable federalist posturings in that direction.

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ayrmad

ayrmad

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Posted

Britain is in a state of self denial, sitting at the bottom of European league tables, but convinced it still rules the waves. The aspirations of the SNP may seem ambitious, but all they are really proposing is to be a normal European country.

There is a trope I hear a lot at the moment: “Scotland is different”. Left to lie, on its own, with no explanation, it's a sort of petty nationalism. The idea that any one group of people is intrinsically unlike any other strikes me as a perverse way to understand humanity.

The context, usually, is political. Scotland has free education “because it's different”. Scotland hasn't privatised its NHS, “because it's different”. It's utter bunkum. The truth is that Scotland is, basically, a very normal Northern European country.

Across Northern Europe, university education is either free (in Germany and the Nordic countries) or costs only a few hundred Euros (in the Netherlands and France, for example). Most of Europe has much lower levels of income inequality than the UK. Apart from the Benelux countries and Cyprus, all of Europe's countries use more renewable energy than the UK, despite Britain having more potential than almost any of them.

In most of Europe, in fact, in most of the world, the idea that significant portions of your economy would be publicly owned is quite standard. In Northern Europe, it's not abnormal to have decent childcare provision, to work a sensible number of hours a day, and to be more productive in total as a result.

No, when people say that Scotland is different, that the social democratic aspirations of Scots are an anomaly, they are missing the point entirely. The social attitudes of Scots, and the policies of the Scottish Parliament, are pretty much standard for a European country. Scotland isn't the exception, it's the rule.

The thing that's weird isn't even England. Most English people are against privatisation, and though there is a small difference in attitudes towards social security, it's nothing that won't change over the years.

No, the thing that's an outlier is Britain. As the Radical Independence Campaign has pointed out, it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

It's Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.

It's Britain which has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country, Europe's greatest regional inequality, productivity 16% behind the average for advanced economies and the worst record on industrial production of the rich world. It's Britain whose elite has a radical ideology: 40% of the total value of all privatisations in the Western world between 1980 and 1996 happened in the UK; and it's Britain's parliament which is uniquely undemocratic, with its noxious combination of first past the post and an unelected second chamber, yet holds more centralised power than almost any other legislature in the developed world. With all that, it should be no surprise that Britain has the lowest level of trust in our politicians.

Most people in the South East of England never seem to understand this. Blinded by the headlights and headlines of post imperial UK nationalism, the idea that “Britain is Great” pervades. We (I live in the South East at the moment) cling with white fisted knuckles to the notion that Britannia rules, unwilling to let go of our imperial past for fear that we might find we are just another European country. It's a myth which works much more in England, and which helps explain differences in the tendancy to believe immigrant scapegoating North and South of the border "if Britain is uniquely great" people infer "it can't be the system that's to blame, it must be outsiders".

But the truth is that this is a very sick country indeed. We are investing a net figure of nothing in our future economy, and instead just about keep our head above water by flogging off our assets at a rate which would astonish almost any other country and re-inflating speculative bubbles which suck any wealth we do create into an unproductive black hole London housing market which eats wealth out of the rest of the country, hoovering any investment away from anything productive and then complaining when it's asked to redistribute crumbs from its table.

A metropolis once at the centre of the biggest empire in human history and now at the centre of a global revolution of money-men over making things, of the wealthy over the rest is disguised by a blanket of post-imperial false confidence. Post-imperial Britain is a very strange, very damaged place. And before the people of these islands, the English in particular, can move on, and find a new place in the world, they need someone to finally point out that not only is this former emperor naked, not only does he no longer rule the waves, but his failure to grapple sensibly with either these facts has led to some pretty unhealthy habits. Telling a difficult truth is what friends are for. In part, that's what Scotland's referendum will be about.

But for most Scots, it'll be about their families and their communities. And so for them, it's important to understand this: when people say that Scotland could do better, this isn't about some nationalist belief that the talents or the solidaristic instincts of the Scots are unique. In order to be a significantly nicer place to live, all that Scotland needs is to be normal. Compared to being in broken Britain, living in a bog-standard average Western country may seem like an impossible, utopian fairy-land, to which only naïve children conned by lying politicians would aspire. But for most of the Western world, the sort of Scotland that the SNP talk about, that most yes campaigners say we can expect, isn't exceptional, it's not even better than average. I am a radical. I hope we can achieve much more. But the “cloud cuckoo land” aspiration of the Scottish Government is to be an average, run of the mill, bog-standard European country. Compared to where we are now, that would be a great start.

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ayrmad

ayrmad

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Hopefully we celebrate the 24th March and 18th September, we could have 2 days off where we actually do party.

Cheltenham and St Paddys one week and Independence day the next week.

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Tubbs

Tubbs

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Posted

Draft independence bill and interim constitution being published by people with absolutely no political mandate whatsoever to do so. Setting out the foundations for an independent Scotland if the country votes yes ! Undemocratic in the extreme and puts paid to any of the yes campaign being bigger than the SNP.

Its a referendum on a single question which provides no basis for decisions on what the country will look like.

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Mr Bairn

Mr Bairn

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Hopefully we celebrate the 24th March and 18th September, we could have 2 days off where we actually do party.

Cheltenham and St Paddys one week and Independence day the next week.

Yeah, one of the things I've realised in the last couple of years is just how seriously Paddys is taken by the Irish community. Wish we could celebrate like that on St Andrews

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HardyBamboo

HardyBamboo

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Posted

You are being offered the opportunity to vote this down.

How much more democracy do you actually want?

No political mandate? The SNP stood on a ticket of providing a referendum and to the best of my knowledge they absolutely pumped Labour in the subsequent election.

People voting Yes are voting to allow future Scottish governments to make pretty much all of our decisions rather than Westminster.

What those decisions are will entirely depend on the elected government at the time.

TBH I have no idea where you are going with this rather spectacular rant.

I kind of thought that myself, maybe he has been partying with Mr Bairn?

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DeeTillEhDeh

DeeTillEhDeh

Posted
Posted

Britain is in a state of self denial, sitting at the bottom of European league tables, but convinced it still rules the waves. The aspirations of the SNP may seem ambitious, but all they are really proposing is to be a normal European country.

There is a trope I hear a lot at the moment: “Scotland is different”. Left to lie, on its own, with no explanation, it's a sort of petty nationalism. The idea that any one group of people is intrinsically unlike any other strikes me as a perverse way to understand humanity.

The context, usually, is political. Scotland has free education “because it's different”. Scotland hasn't privatised its NHS, “because it's different”. It's utter bunkum. The truth is that Scotland is, basically, a very normal Northern European country.

Across Northern Europe, university education is either free (in Germany and the Nordic countries) or costs only a few hundred Euros (in the Netherlands and France, for example). Most of Europe has much lower levels of income inequality than the UK. Apart from the Benelux countries and Cyprus, all of Europe's countries use more renewable energy than the UK, despite Britain having more potential than almost any of them.

In most of Europe, in fact, in most of the world, the idea that significant portions of your economy would be publicly owned is quite standard. In Northern Europe, it's not abnormal to have decent childcare provision, to work a sensible number of hours a day, and to be more productive in total as a result.

No, when people say that Scotland is different, that the social democratic aspirations of Scots are an anomaly, they are missing the point entirely. The social attitudes of Scots, and the policies of the Scottish Parliament, are pretty much standard for a European country. Scotland isn't the exception, it's the rule.

The thing that's weird isn't even England. Most English people are against privatisation, and though there is a small difference in attitudes towards social security, it's nothing that won't change over the years.

No, the thing that's an outlier is Britain. As the Radical Independence Campaign has pointed out, it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

It's Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.

It's Britain which has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country, Europe's greatest regional inequality, productivity 16% behind the average for advanced economies and the worst record on industrial production of the rich world. It's Britain whose elite has a radical ideology: 40% of the total value of all privatisations in the Western world between 1980 and 1996 happened in the UK; and it's Britain's parliament which is uniquely undemocratic, with its noxious combination of first past the post and an unelected second chamber, yet holds more centralised power than almost any other legislature in the developed world. With all that, it should be no surprise that Britain has the lowest level of trust in our politicians.

Most people in the South East of England never seem to understand this. Blinded by the headlights and headlines of post imperial UK nationalism, the idea that “Britain is Great” pervades. We (I live in the South East at the moment) cling with white fisted knuckles to the notion that Britannia rules, unwilling to let go of our imperial past for fear that we might find we are just another European country. It's a myth which works much more in England, and which helps explain differences in the tendancy to believe immigrant scapegoating North and South of the border "if Britain is uniquely great" people infer "it can't be the system that's to blame, it must be outsiders".

But the truth is that this is a very sick country indeed. We are investing a net figure of nothing in our future economy, and instead just about keep our head above water by flogging off our assets at a rate which would astonish almost any other country and re-inflating speculative bubbles which suck any wealth we do create into an unproductive black hole London housing market which eats wealth out of the rest of the country, hoovering any investment away from anything productive and then complaining when it's asked to redistribute crumbs from its table.

A metropolis once at the centre of the biggest empire in human history and now at the centre of a global revolution of money-men over making things, of the wealthy over the rest is disguised by a blanket of post-imperial false confidence. Post-imperial Britain is a very strange, very damaged place. And before the people of these islands, the English in particular, can move on, and find a new place in the world, they need someone to finally point out that not only is this former emperor naked, not only does he no longer rule the waves, but his failure to grapple sensibly with either these facts has led to some pretty unhealthy habits. Telling a difficult truth is what friends are for. In part, that's what Scotland's referendum will be about.

But for most Scots, it'll be about their families and their communities. And so for them, it's important to understand this: when people say that Scotland could do better, this isn't about some nationalist belief that the talents or the solidaristic instincts of the Scots are unique. In order to be a significantly nicer place to live, all that Scotland needs is to be normal. Compared to being in broken Britain, living in a bog-standard average Western country may seem like an impossible, utopian fairy-land, to which only naïve children conned by lying politicians would aspire. But for most of the Western world, the sort of Scotland that the SNP talk about, that most yes campaigners say we can expect, isn't exceptional, it's not even better than average. I am a radical. I hope we can achieve much more. But the “cloud cuckoo land” aspiration of the Scottish Government is to be an average, run of the mill, bog-standard European country. Compared to where we are now, that would be a great start.

Where did you cut and paste that word salad from?

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Tubbs

Tubbs

Posted
Posted

You are being offered the opportunity to vote this down.

How much more democracy do you actually want?

No political mandate? The SNP stood on a ticket of providing a referendum and to the best of my knowledge they absolutely pumped Labour in the subsequent election.

People voting Yes are voting to allow future Scottish governments to make pretty much all of our decisions rather than Westminster.

What those decisions are will entirely depend on the elected government at the time.

TBH I have no idea where you are going with this rather spectacular rant.

You said it yourself; they stood on a ticket of providing a referendum. Not a ticket of what a post referendum yes would mean.

Some people may vote yes but want a separate Scottish currency for example - how do they influence that? Instead anyone voting yes is effectively endorsing all SNP policies or writing them a blank cheque re negotiations.

If the yes campaign is wider than the SNP how do you get the currency arrangements preferred by its chairman ie a Scottish currency ?

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