Confidemus Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It's why I've continually said I have no argument with all Yes voters, and indeed will feel sorry for those campaigning for what they see as the correct structural model for Scotland to adopt after a defeat. I also find arguments in this vein the most convincing and there are a lot of decent arguments for secession. It's also why I think the Yes campaign hasn't done a good enough job in distancing themselves from the SNP. And of course, the nationalist idiots on here are actually detrimental to the cause. Those who use rhetoric about No voters betraying the country and rubbish about "Scotland should be an independent nation...cos it's just natural". And how do you feel about Yes voters who believe not only that Independence is the correct structural model for Scotland to adopt but ALSO feel a fierce nationalistic pride for their country? Apathy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 "Freedom for Tibet" doesn't necessarily mean you are a Nationalist. This really isn't complicated. This can be resolved simply :- Do you think all those who believe in Scottish Independence are Nationalists - yes or no? This is complicated. You believe in simple sweeping absolutes that don't exist in the real world. To paraphrase my answer for accuracy; yes, all those who believe in Scottish Independence are a type of Nationalist. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nationalism is only wrong when it is used divisively or prejudicially. If I could wave a magic wand and tomorrow we'd have a One-world utopian society, I'd do so. But we operate in a world of borders, and I personally happen to believe that the best way forward for Scotland to establish a better level of social equality is by going it alone. You may agree or disagree, but that's where I stand on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The problem here appears to be that you don't understand what a nationalist is. Fundamentally. No, you don't. Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. That is its most basic description. - "identifying with"? That'd be the folk holding the flag in your avatar pic. - "becoming attached to"? I would suggest most are. Within nationalism, and this would be the complicated part that doesn't fit with the facile good/bad dynamic you're trying to establish, there are people that use their identification with their country for good, and there are those that use it for ill. There is no absolute, and only someone either poorly-educated or lacking in the confidence of their own arguments would suggest there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I haven't said that. I've said the results of last week does not mean the UK would vote to leave the EU, that's not the same as "no bearing" What i intitally asked was is there any proof the Uk wants to leave - ie polling? Do you never watch the BBC? Where is your proof that Scotlands deal to enter the EU will be worse than what we have now? Did you say the same about Scotland leaving the UK before the 2011 election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 H B British nationalists = good Scottish nationalists = bad. English nationalists = ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBamboo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Supporting the sovereignty or self-determination of a peoples is not the same as wanting them to be a "nation". Statehood and nationhood are different and you can support one but not the other. I always thought the terms nation & state were pretty much interchangeable, you have encouraged me to do a definition search & I can see that technically they are not. I still think that most non political science geeks use the terms synonymously though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBamboo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think there should be an online test to determine whether or not you're a nationalist. At the moment I don't have a clue if I am as the term has been utterly ruined in this debate. It has been used to generalise Yes voters and it goes without saying that a lot of them are not nationalists. Me? Well I have described myself as one in the past but as I say the word has been overused and in the context of Scottish Independence it's difficult to know what it really means. I want us to control our own policies and I don't feel any emotional connection to people in other countries in the UK. But on the other hand, there are stereotypical parts of Scottish culture I don't really get either. I've never watched Braveheart and I won't celebrate Bannockburn because it's not my thing. And just because the Commonwealth games are in Scotland this year doesn't mean I'll suddenly be watching every event. Like the Olympics, it just doesn't really interest me because they aren't my kind of sports. Who knows. I just want us to become independent and if people want to label me then they can go right ahead. I'm doing nothing wrong. You are a nationalist, a civic nationalist, I like to think I am as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I always thought the terms nation & state were pretty much interchangeable, you have encouraged me to do a definition search & I can see that technically they are not. I still think that most non political science geeks use the terms synonymously though. It's not a technical distinction; it's a fundamental one. It strikes precisely at the heart of the basis of political community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It's not a technical distinction; it's a fundamental one. It strikes precisely at the heart of the basis of political community. This is also a football forum. keep that in mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 This is also a football forum. keep that in mind Are you suggesting football fans are too thick to understand basic distinctions between states and nations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Are you suggesting football fans are too thick to understand basic distinctions between states and nations? No, but i think you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Jim Murphy has said Labour won't give up Nuclear Weapons unless everyone else does. So thats a never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Jim Murphy has said Labour won't give up Nuclear Weapons unless everyone else does. So thats a never Have they decided where abouts in Carlise they are going to put them yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Great stuff from Jim Murphy. I'd back him as a future Labour leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Michael Stewart tryin not to snigger at the plight of the libdums on Scotland 2014 was very funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 You know the fight is almost one when the yes campaign are reduced to putting Michael Stewart in to bat. Yes campaign in absolute tatters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 You know the fight is almost one when the yes campaign are reduced to putting Michael Stewart in to bat. So does that make 'the fight' 0.9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 So does that make 'the fight' 0.9? Come on! It's not nice to mock the afflicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 It's not a technical distinction; it's a fundamental one. It strikes precisely at the heart of the basis of political community. You really are a fanny of cataclysmic proportions at times, Libby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 You really are a fanny of cataclysmic proportions at times, Libby. Nah, he's an idiot with a dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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