Scottish Independence

[Confidemus]

Not enough if economic decentralisation and socio-economic equality are your objectives.

Can someone post a picture of Vic Reeves holding a handbag up below ^^^ this please?

[strichener]

Not enough if economic decentralisation and socio-economic equality are your objectives.

My objectives is for better infrastructure in the NE.

ETA: This is partly the issue with the over-heating in the Aberdeen housing market and the swathes of housebuilding within the 18 mile radius. Anything outside of this and you are looking at 90mins to get into work in the morning. This is of course assuming that there are no accidents etc. as it is likely to mean a road closure since you can not just move it to the inside carriageway!!

[renton]

Vote Yes to save England from Ed Balls:

4.21pm BST

Afternoon summary

• Mike Hancock, the MP whose Lib Dem whip was withdrawn following claims he had sexually assaulted a vulnerable constituent, has apologised for making her feel "degraded", "uncomfortable" and "discriminated against". You can read his apology in full here. Party sources say Hancock now faces expulsion from the party.

• Ed Balls has indicated that he could resign as chancellor if a future Labour government proposed joining a currency union with an independent Scotland - something he said the shadow cabinet was "100%" opposed to. As the Press Association reports, the shadow chancellor earlier this year joined Conservative and Liberal Democrat counterparts in ruling out Scotland keeping the pound if the independence referendum ends in a Yes vote in September. Speaking to the House of Commons Scottish affairs committee, Balls said that the commitment could go into the Labour manifesto for next year's general election if Scotland votes for separation - though he stressed his hopes that, by that point, the issue would have been neutralised by a No vote. Allowing an independent Scotland to keep the pound would amount to a euro-style currency union between sovereign states, he said. And he told the cross-party committee that currency union with Scotland would fail all five of the tests set for UK membership of the euro when he was advising Gordon Brown at the Treasury a decade ago.

I could never recommend it. It wouldn't happen, shouldn't happen and won't happen if there is a Labour government.

Asked if he would resign if a future Labour prime minister decided to offer currency union to Scotland, Balls said: "I could not imagine being part of the start of that negotiation, let alone the end."

[Thumper]

I don't know what's more curious: Ed "Ed Balls" Balls thinking that his resigning is a threat, or Labour thinking that putting something in their manifesto will make people think they've in any way committed to it.

[H_B]

or Labour thinking that putting something in their manifesto will make people think they've in any way committed to it.

Well, this is true of all political parties.

[Ad Lib]

My objectives is for better infrastructure in the NE.

A perfectly legitimate position but not one which necessarily best benefits Scotland in the round.

ETA: This is partly the issue with the over-heating in the Aberdeen housing market and the swathes of housebuilding within the 18 mile radius. Anything outside of this and you are looking at 90mins to get into work in the morning. This is of course assuming that there are no accidents etc. as it is likely to mean a road closure since you can not just move it to the inside carriageway!!

All true statements of which I have personal experience having grown up there and been friends with plenty people living, in some cases, just outside that 18 mile radius. Not especially a reason that central government money is needed or the best way to fix it or that the infrastructure can't be financed another way.

[strichener]

A perfectly legitimate position but not one which necessarily best benefits Scotland in the round.

All true statements of which I have personal experience having grown up there and been friends with plenty people living, in some cases, just outside that 18 mile radius. Not especially a reason that central government money is needed or the best way to fix it or that the infrastructure can't be financed another way.

I am not disagreeing with any of that. The trunk road network is the responsibility of central government though and if you have organisations introducing 9 day fortnights etc. to elleviate the travel burden on their employees then you know that there is a problem.

I suppose I look at the Independence debate and all the resources of Scotland and see the benefit of this appears to stop at Dundee. A prime example of this is that every major intersection on the A90 south of Dundee was replaced by a flyover. North of Dundee? Not one was replaced. The one just south of Dundee is particularly obscene - Longforgans underpass constructed for 2 farmers and a retired minister.

[Thumper]

I may be missing something in this Great Lowlands Highway Conspiracy talk, but wasn't the reason for the disproportionate amount of money spent on upgrading roads in the southwest primarily because... those roads are disproportionately responsible for road accidents? It's not about an agreement to increase Angus McTavish's morning commute by fifteen minutes so much as making the M77 slightly less lethal than Route Irish.

[Burma]

And that has what to do with the 1989 constitutional Convention, created at a point when the SNP had been smashed in the 1987 election and were a complete irrelevance as was the Independence movement?

Also, note "voted for devolution" not "voted for Independence".

And we got deveolution. Delivered by the Labour Party, following cross-party consensus and civic consensus in the 1990s. whilst the SNP sat and seethed on the sidelines, as the rest of Scotland ignored them and went about creating the Scottish Parliament they then jumped on the bandwagon of.

Talk about epic fail. Your fail is complete here. Not only have you completely lost the thread of your own argument (which seems to be that devolution was only wanted because of the Poll Tax) you seem to want to change the framework of the debate by talking about Independence (which wasnt on offer in 1979), when not once had this been linked to your original premise. Pick a lane idiot!

If devo was the result of Thatcherism then why did Scotland vote for Devolution in 1979?

If devo was the result of a civic convention which didnt deliver its final report until 1995, why then was there a referendum in 1979?

The answer is obviously in the fact that devolution (or the Labour inspired illusion of it) is the result of Nationalism.

Please refrain from attempting to alter the parameters of the debate by introducing random elements such as you have done above, it does not allow the conversation to evolve and it becomes obvious that you are forcing it in one direction (which is the tactic of a troll who is losing to logic), much as you do with other topics you dont fully understand. The constant repetition (very politician like) is neither here nor there as the things you are repeating are not directly relateable to your orginal point, which utterly fails to explain the desire for autonomy and merely dismisses it as some kind of sudden Labour inspired and delivered knee jerk reaction to the failings in Scotland of runaway capitalist and government led economics.

[Tubbs]

Fair point.

Personally I support the creation of our own currency, but I would be happy to have a Union/sterlingisation in the short term. However I don't think they are long term solutions for an iScotland due to issues such as this.

At least that option will be there in the future of an iScotland.

That is the crux, no one believes that a currency that was previously a millstone is now a great thing for a new Scotland. Its a short term fix, alongside NATO membership and a so called constitution that accepts religious sectarianism in terms of head of state, to try and appeal to folk to vote yes and to provide some kind of initial stability and consistency. The rUK might as well take any post yes currecy pain right away rather than wait till it suits Scotland to move to a new currency.

That is the main crux, no one seriously believes that a currency union is a long term goal or even desirable in the medium to long term.

[Blaven]

That is the crux, no one believes that a currency that was previously a millstone is now a great thing for a new Scotland. Its a short term fix, alongside NATO membership and a so called constitution that accepts religious sectarianism in terms of head of state, to try and appeal to folk to vote yes and to provide some kind of initial stability and consistency. The rUK might as well take any post yes currecy pain right away rather than wait till it suits Scotland to move to a new currency.

That is the main crux, no one seriously believes that a currency union is a long term goal or even desirable in the medium to long term.

You could very well be right.

I dont think a CU would be good for either sides in the long term.

It would however be best for both sides until all other formal negotiations are resolved.

Would it be undoable for both sides to agree on a 5 year CU until both sides get their houses in order?

[strichener]

I may be missing something in this Great Lowlands Highway Conspiracy talk, but wasn't the reason for the disproportionate amount of money spent on upgrading roads in the southwest primarily because... those roads are disproportionately responsible for road accidents? It's not about an agreement to increase Angus McTavish's morning commute by fifteen minutes so much as making the M77 slightly less lethal than Route Irish.

If you believe that then you are missing a great deal. If this was the logic for upgrading roads then the A9 would have been first on the hit list. Instead of spending hundreds of millions on an un-necessary bridge and the equivalent of pocket change putting in average speed cameras as a solution to crap roads.

Here is an article to disprove this. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/scotlands-most-dangerous-roads.17121570 and http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/news/local/angus-road-most-dangerous-a-road-in-scotland-1.145349

Any way you look at it, the motorways and A roads designed to motorway standards (sections of the A78) are statistically safer than A roads. The A77 had a couple of accidents involving police officers spurning the extension of a statistically "safe" road. From 2005-2009 ther number of fatalities on the A90 (A77) were

2005 - 9 (3)

2006 - 17 (4)

2007 - 11 (7)

2008 - 9 (<2)

2009 - 9 (4)

So this debunks your argument, sorry.

[Tubbs]

You could very well be right.

I dont think a CU would be good for either sides in the long term.

It would however be best for both sides until all other formal negotiations are resolved.

Would it be undoable for both sides to agree on a 5 year CU until both sides get their houses in order?

Not sure why delaying the 'hit' would make it any better for the UK ?

Why should the UK help stabilise a competitor to help it thro the transition and be more competitive.

[Blaven]

Not sure why delaying the 'hit' would make it any better for the UK ?

Why should the UK help stabilise a competitor to help it thro the transition and be more competitive.

How stable do you forsee the RUK being after the split?

[BigBadSaint]

Not enough if economic decentralisation and socio-economic equality are your objectives.

Can someone post a picture of Vic Reeves holding a handbag up below ^^^ this please?

[ayrmad]

If you believe that then you are missing a great deal. If this was the logic for upgrading roads then the A9 would have been first on the hit list. Instead of spending hundreds of millions on an un-necessary bridge and the equivalent of pocket change putting in average speed cameras as a solution to crap roads.

Here is an article to disprove this. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/scotlands-most-dangerous-roads.17121570 and http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/news/local/angus-road-most-dangerous-a-road-in-scotland-1.145349

Any way you look at it, the motorways and A roads designed to motorway standards (sections of the A78) are statistically safer than A roads. The A77 had a couple of accidents involving police officers spurning the extension of a statistically "safe" road. From 2005-2009 ther number of fatalities on the A90 (A77) were

2005 - 9 (3)

2006 - 17 (4)

2007 - 11 (7)

2008 - 9 (<2)

2009 - 9 (4)

So this debunks your argument, sorry.

Not really interested in a ma da's bigger than your da but the A77 between Glasgow and Killie ( a shit bit of road) was dualled in 2005 and SPECS were introduced at Bog End Toll and the Girvan to Maidens stretch in 2005, both areas where I can think of quite a few deaths, the 77 also slows going through quite a few towns and villages.

FWIW I think all major roads should be dualled at least, used to hate driving up the 77 to Glasgow, cars doing over a ton head on to each other is crazy.

[strichener]

Not really interested in a ma da's bigger than your da but the A77 between Glasgow and Killie ( a shit bit of road) was dualled in 2005 and SPECS were introduced at Bog End Toll and the Girvan to Maidens stretch in 2005, both areas where I can think of quite a few deaths, the 77 also slows going through quite a few towns and villages.

FWIW I think all major roads should be dualled at least, used to hate driving up the 77 to Glasgow, cars doing over a ton head on to each other is crazy.

And in the three years prior to dualling there were 13 deaths. The same as 1 year on the A90.

[ayrmad]

And in the three years prior to dualling there were 13 deaths. The same as 1 year on the A90.

The A90 goes on forever, the Newton Mearns to Killie and Girvan to Maidens stretches used to take 10 minutes each.

[Tubbs]

How stable do you forsee the RUK being after the split?

Apparently stable enough that the whole yes campaign are quite happy to hitch a new Scotland's economy to it.

[Confidemus]

Apparently stable enough that the whole yes campaign are quite happy to hitch a new Scotland's economy to it.

That's a tad unfair, old chap.