Guest The Phoenix Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, somebody is lying. Not necessarily, it could well be that the rate has been increased for new recruits and kilbowie's been in service for a number of years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 And yet that's what you - as an expert - claim !? Actually, I didn't break the cardinal rule of the internet and reveal any personal information about me but apparently you did. I have qualifications in Aeronautical Engineering and I've spent most of my adult life working on military and civilian helicopters. Excellent. In that case you'll be able to elaborate on my speculation about there being a problem between about the aircraft having a transmission failure and somehow going end over end. For some reason you chose to edit that part out of your response to me. After all, you really ARE the one claiming to be an expert. I am but a speculating amateur,. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I am but a speculating amateur,. Your speculation has been of a deeply offensive nature. With zero evidence you have been besmirching an elite level helicopter pilot and throwing tantrums about his funeral. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) Actually, I didn't break the cardinal rule of the internet and reveal any personal information about me but apparently you did. I've posted on here for over ten years - folk have a general idea of my background. Excellent. In that case you'll be able to elaborate on my speculation about there being a problem between about the aircraft having a transmission failure and somehow going end over end. For some reason you chose to edit that part out of your response to me. I've already answered that bit. Edited December 9, 2013 by Ned Nederlander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I do have a relevant degree, pilots experience and the literary skills to understand that when I said it was almost certainly pilot error I was being completely accurate. I am but a speculating amateur,. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Actually, I didn't break the cardinal rule of the internet and reveal any personal information about me but apparently you did. Excellent. In that case you'll be able to elaborate on my speculation about there being a problem between about the aircraft having a transmission failure and somehow going end over end. For some reason you chose to edit that part out of your response to me. After all, you really ARE the one claiming to be an expert. I am but a speculating amateur,. Wow, you're drowning man. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Clocked that same bit earlier on but mobile version doesnt allow multi quote lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisal Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Whether you like it or not, pilot error is by far the most likely cause given the fact there was no mayday. Without wishing to be crass. What good would a recording of the pilot going "fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck" have made to the outcome? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 So it looks like jock001 is some kind of top gun pilot ace? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I've already answered that bit. Ahh yes. You claiming to be trained in aeronautical engineering and having worked on helicopters most of your adult life said: Witnesses have stated that the main rotor head had stopped spinning so I'd suggest that purely the action of the aircraft falling from the sky was enough to cause it to tumble (FWIW - a helicopter's main rotor acts like a huge gyroscope - it makes the aircraft more stable) This was when I pointed out that for a helicopter to go end over end it had to have its rotor still going otherwise there'd be nothing to cause such a dramatic change in pitch. It seems strange that after making your claims, you deliberately edited out anything technical you were asked and then made a post which suggests you don't understand the difference between momentum and angular momentum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 So it looks like jock001 is some kind of top gun pilot ace? No, just some unemployed fantasist with a few copies of Flight magazine lying around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Why don't you apologise for the disgusting remarks about the funeral and admit you completely made up all that crap about how they are being funded etc? Perhaps because I didn't make a single comment I think is disgusting and you yourself admitted some of the costs are state funded. If you think me saying coppers don't deserve special treatment compared to nurses etc is disgusting, it says a lot more about you than about me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) This was when I pointed out that for a helicopter to go end over end it had to have its rotor still going otherwise there'd be nothing to cause such a dramatic change in pitch. It seems strange that after making your claims, you deliberately edited out anything technical you were asked and then made a post which suggests you don't understand the difference between momentum and angular momentum. Witnesses have stated that the rotor head wasn't turning - that instantly dismisses the cyclic as the reason why the aircraft would have pitched forward - I therefore speculated as to why it might have been tumbling and I didn't omit anything 'technical' from my post. Mind you - let's not forget what you have already said on the subject: I have no idea what sort of pilot error "would result in an aircraft tumbling nose over tail with the main rotors stopped". So why bang on about it ? Anyhoo - I'm backing up what I have said why don't you use your "relevant degree, pilots experience and the literary skills" to explain your comments ... I do have a relevant degree, pilots experience and the literary skills to understand that when I said it was almost certainly pilot error I was being completely accurate. Edited December 9, 2013 by Ned Nederlander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Quit whilst you're behind here, methinks jock. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Witnesses have stated that the rotor head wasn't turning - that instantly dismisses the cyclic as the reason why the aircraft would have pitched forward - I therefore speculated as to why it might have been tumbling and I didn't omit anything 'technical' from my post. Mind you - let's not forget what you have already said on the subject: So why bang on about it ? Anyhoo - I'm backing up what I have said why don't you use your "relevant degree, pilots experience and the literary skills" to explain your comments ... I specifically asked you whether a transmission failure was likely to cause an aircraft to drop straight down rather than tumble. You certainly avoided that 'technical' point. In fact your explanation as an aeronautical engineer for any tumbling was "the action of the aircraft falling from the sky was enough to cause it to tumble". Standard grade physics tells me this isn't really true. You also seem to be basing all your claims on the supposition that it was "tumbling nose over tail" when no eyewitness account I read has said that. AFAIK most said it dropped straight down and a sun editor described it as 'tumbling'. Nobody mentioned nose over tail, did they? Googling the phrase does bring up news reports but only from the US it seems. In the interview he gave the BBC he described it as "turning in a strange position". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Quit whilst you're behind here, methinks jock. Nobody knows what happened up there, I find it hard to come up with a combination of events that would have the aircraft tumbling nose over tail with the main rotor stopped as has been witnessed - especially since the aircraft was reported by air crash investigators as being intact - I certainly can't link that to pilot error ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 IYou also seem to be basing all your claims on the supposition that it was "tumbling nose over tail" when no eyewitness account I read has said that. AFAIK most said it dropped straight down and a sun editor described it as 'tumbling'. Nobody mentioned nose over tail, did they? Googling the phrase does bring up news reports but only from the US it seems. In the interview he gave the BBC he described it as "turning in a strange position". Let me Google That For You 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 This is interesting : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25306936 If there was no evidence of gearbox failure why was the main rotor not rotating as it came down? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I specifically asked you whether a transmission failure was likely to cause an aircraft to drop straight down rather than tumble. You certainly avoided that 'technical' point. In fact your explanation as an aeronautical engineer for any tumbling was "the action of the aircraft falling from the sky was enough to cause it to tumble". Standard grade physics tells me this isn't really true. I was already posting as much to AberdeenBud when you made your post - I have speculated based on what witnesses have stated If the aircraft was indeed tumbling then I have suggested the most likely reason, however unlikely it seems - but then again you are the one telling us what happened whereas I'm merely giving my opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 This is interesting : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25306936 If there was no evidence of gearbox failure why was the main rotor not rotating as it came down? Interesting indeed - helicopters do of course have rotor brakes - some operated manually and some electronically - I know of one aircraft that crashed, in part, due to an electrical issue with that system ! I don't know what would have been fitted to this particular aircraft though and i'm sure that if the brake had come on by means of a fault then that would have already been discovered and confirmed by the investigators !? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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