The Economic Case for an Independent Scotland

[ayrmad]

Is this NCC training day?

The link was to bfs. It's been one of a number of links to bfs over the past couple of weeks on this site. This previously happened with newsnat and wos, which were breathlessly cut and pasted from over a sustained period.

bfs are clearly a new pet website for the NCC. Variety is generally good.

It's BfS that have for the most part been quietly and effectively dismantling rUK's economical arguments, plenty hum and haw about their site, nobody appears to disprove their position.

[AUFC90]

*shrugs*

Believe as you please. I'm voting Yes. I don't find "OMG SCOTLAND SELLS TONNES OF SHIT TO PEOPLE" an argument either for or against independence. I have absolutely no doubts of Scotland's ability to sell lots of shit under any constitutional arrangement.

Why are you voting yes ?

And why are our exports not relevant ? Surely having one of the highest export rates Pee capita on the planet shows we are more than capable of being independant?

[H_B]

It's BfS that have for the most part been quietly and effectively dismantling rUK's economical arguments, plenty hum and haw about their site, nobody appears to disprove their position.

Are their economic "experts" much better than the joker they drafted in to give their legal position?

[ayrmad]

Are their economic "experts" much better than the joker they drafted in to give their legal position?

Have you witnessed anyone discrediting their position on the economy?

I've witnessed them tearing NO's arse to shreds on quite a few issues, not once I've witnessed anyone shredding their position.

The fact that you can bet 50/1 on Darlings position regarding a currency union tells you all you need to know about NO's position on the economy.

[Ad Lib]

Do you know what taxes are?

Do you know what Barnett is?

[Ad Lib]

Why are you voting yes ?

And why are our exports not relevant ? Surely having one of the highest export rates Pee capita on the planet shows we are more than capable of being independant?

Because the question is not whether we are capable of being independent.

[H_B]

The fact that you can bet 50/1 on Darlings position regarding a currency union tells you all you need to know about NO's position on the economy.

Mmm.. can you? How exactly does Ladbrokes define "currency union" and how available is this bet? I have a Ladbrokes account and couldn't find it in the Politics bets.

[HardyBamboo]

Are their economic "experts" much better than the joker they drafted in to give their legal position?

Why don't you have a good read &, if necessary, issue one of your "legendary" takedowns?

[ayrmad]

Mmm.. can you? How exactly does Ladbrokes define "currency union" and how available is this bet? I have a Ladbrokes account and couldn't find it in the Politics bets.

It was an update feed shortly after Mark Carney's speech, I've no idea what the availability is and every bet available isn't on a bookies website.

[H_B]

Why don't you have a good read &, if necessary, issue one of your "legendary" takedowns?

I don't know anything about economics. I have no idea whether their analysis is correct or not.

I do know their legal "analysis" was disasterously poor to the point of being comical.

[HardyBamboo]

I don't know anything about economics. I have no idea whether their analysis is correct or not.

I do know their legal "analysis" was disasterously poor to the point of being comical.

You don't need to be an expert to form an opinion, remember there is a "big picture" here it isn't all about the fine details of Law. BTW I hope you are better at Economics, (& Law), than you are at spelling!

[AUFC90]

Because the question is not whether we are capable of being independent.

Not really, they go hand in hand. The no side continually try to tell us that we are not capable of going it alone. Things like this prove we are capable. If everyone in Scotland thought we were more than capable it would be a landslide.

[Ad Lib]

Not really, they go hand in hand. The no side continually try to tell us that we are not capable of going it alone. Things like this prove we are capable. If everyone in Scotland thought we were more than capable it would be a landslide.

I disagree.

It is not a question of whether we can go it alone, it's should. Evidence of exports, while we're in the Union, is neither evidence for or against the proposition that Scotland would be better off independent. It is merely evidence that it is doing pretty well under the status quo. The only information of material interest should be evidence or modelling suggesting the extent to which Scottish exports would grow or decline in the event of independence, relative to what they would do in the Union. These numbers saying that we are a strong exporter under the status quo don't even attempt to address that brief.

[AUFC90]

I disagree.

It is not a question of whether we can go it alone, it's should. Evidence of exports, while we're in the Union, is neither evidence for or against the proposition that Scotland would be better off independent. It is merely evidence that it is doing pretty well under the status quo. The only information of material interest should be evidence or modelling suggesting the extent to which Scottish exports would grow or decline in the event of independence, relative to what they would do in the Union. These numbers saying that we are a strong exporter under the status quo don't even attempt to address that brief.

What they do adress is how much better than the UK as a whole we actually are. On almost every factor. Our exports and our oil and gas are propping up the currency and the UKs trade deficit. Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that we would do even better if we govern ourselves ?

ETA you never did answer my question as to why you are voting yes ?

[printer]

So we would be running a surplus of it wasn't for Westminsters total mismanagement of our finances ?

And assuming an independent Scottish Government didn't manage them worse.

[printer]

Do you know what taxes are?

Do you know if the UK makes a lot of tax from the export of whisky? Do you know which specific taxes the money is made from?

[AUFC90]

And assuming an independent Scottish Government didn't manage them worse.

Id rather we fcuked it up ourselves rather than let successive Westminster governments do it for us. If it wasn't for oil they would have had us on the shit heap next to Sunderland and the likes.

Westminster have had their chance. They have failed to manage our oil wealth for the last 40 years and they will do the same for the next 40 years. Pretty crap argument if you are scared in case we do it worse.

Westminster have failed. We might as well have a crack at it. Every small nation on Earth who has found oil in the last few decades has gotten considerably wealthier apart from us. I know who I'm pinning the blame on.

[Ad Lib]

What they do adress is how much better than the UK as a whole we actually are. On almost every factor. Our exports and our oil and gas are propping up the currency and the UKs trade deficit. Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that we would do even better if we govern ourselves ?

ETA you never did answer my question as to why you are voting yes ?

It does not necessarily follow that because we do better, within the structures of the Union, than most other parts of the Union, that by that fact itself, we would therefore do better still if independent. It also pre-supposes the answer to the question "who is we" and whether we consider the fact we are better off a reason to go it alone or to work with the rest of the UK. It is quite plausible to argue, as is the case with London, that the UK's legal, economic and political framework structurally advantages the economic outlook and behaviours of Scotland ahead of certain other parts of the UK, and it does not necessarily follow that independence protects or builds upon those structures in a way which benefits Scotland. Those arguments have to be made, not just claims asserted.

For what feels like the umpteenth time, I support independence because I do not believe there is a credible prospect of a meaningful restructuring of the British state towards community control of decision-making. The prospect of more localised, more accountable government seems, at the moment, at least, to be more plausible in an independent Scotland where we have more of an opportunity to shape our constitution to hold politicians and administrators better to account, and to break down, within a couple of generations, the parasitic politics of cosey social democracy that prevents open and frank discussion about the proper role of the state in Scottish society. We can only properly challenge those political structures by breaking up the Scottish party system and that means, ultimately, the destruction of at least one of, and ideally both of, the SNP and Scottish Labour Party. The latter is destroying itself just fine and independence will eventually kill the former.

[AUFC90]

It does not necessarily follow that because we do better, within the structures of the Union, than most other parts of the Union, that by that fact itself, we would therefore do better still if independent. It also pre-supposes the answer to the question "who is we" and whether we consider the fact we are better off a reason to go it alone or to work with the rest of the UK. It is quite plausible to argue, as is the case with London, that the UK's legal, economic and political framework structurally advantages the economic outlook and behaviours of Scotland ahead of certain other parts of the UK, and it does not necessarily follow that independence protects or builds upon those structures in a way which benefits Scotland. Those arguments have to be made, not just claims asserted.

For what feels like the umpteenth time, I support independence because I do not believe there is a credible prospect of a meaningful restructuring of the British state towards community control of decision-making. The prospect of more localised, more accountable government seems, at the moment, at least, to be more plausible in an independent Scotland where we have more of an opportunity to shape our constitution to hold politicians and administrators better to account, and to break down, within a couple of generations, the parasitic politics of cosey social democracy that prevents open and frank discussion about the proper role of the state in Scottish society. We can only properly challenge those political structures by breaking up the Scottish party system and that means, ultimately, the destruction of at least one of, and ideally both of, the SNP and Scottish Labour Party. The latter is destroying itself just fine and independence will eventually kill the former.

Fair enough about your reason for voting yes. I don't agree with the first part though. The UKs political and economic framework gives the south an advantage and no other. Vince Cable has already stated as much.

[HardyBamboo]

From the Scotsman;

George Kerevan: What’s your Plan B, Mr Carmichael?

We don’t want a profligate, ‘rest of the UK’ Labour government running up a Greek-style public sector deficit, writes George Kerevan

Our new Lib Dem Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael, is a solicitor by trade. I have a modest and well-intended piece of advice for Mr Carmichael – stick to the elegance of the law and don’t venture into the treacherous waters of economics.....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/george-kerevan-what-s-your-plan-b-mr-carmichael-1-3189523