Racist Ulster Loyalists fly KKK flag in east Belfast

[Jacksgranda]

Too good to last - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28295008

[AberdeenBud]

So the fact the LOL and their hideous entourage didn't believe like complete animals now means they are immune from criticism and are a lovely bunch of bigots? Laughable.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/Orange-Order-fanatics-resemble-KKK-more-than-a-cultural-group.html

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

So the fact the LOL and their hideous entourage didn't believe like complete animals now means they are immune from criticism and are a lovely bunch of bigots? Laughable.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/Orange-Order-fanatics-resemble-KKK-more-than-a-cultural-group.html

Not the intention of the post at all; I was just pointing out that those who continue to bash one side of NI must be disappointed at the lack of shit to fling. Incidentally, why do the republican rioters not attract the same opprobrium from some?

It's not "whataboutery", it's a genuine question.

A number of the population of that sorry little outpost are descendents of loyalists. A quick browse of Wikipedia gives the reassuring answer that the popularity of Orange marches is on the slide in Canada, which means that they are slowly dragging themselves into the 21st century, which is more than can be said for the population of the northern counties of Ireland.

Can't bring himself to recognise that Northern Ireland exists. Telling

Blames long-established bank holiday on poor business planning too

[Co.Down Hibee]

So the fact the LOL and their hideous entourage didn't believe like complete animals now means they are immune from criticism and are a lovely bunch of bigots? Laughable.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/Orange-Order-fanatics-resemble-KKK-more-than-a-cultural-group.html

I don't have any issues with criticising the Orange Order or the 12th "Celebrations" ,the only thing that annoys me is the "all people in NI being bigoted scum" lines and towing the place out to the Atlantic pish . I wonder what the reaction would be if somebody was saying this about a muslim population or an African country.

[AberdeenBud]

I'm not saying the whole population of NI are bigots, that would be daft.

But you only have to the read VT's excellent analysis earlier in the thread to see that "normal" sections of the population have at the very least provided acquiescence to the bigoted and sectarian institutions and political parties that dominate society and the political agenda.

[Co.Down Hibee]

I'm not saying the whole population of NI are bigots, that would be daft.

But you only have to the read VT'nt analysis earlier in the thread to see that "normal" sections of the population have at the very least provided acquiescence to the bigoted and sectarian institutions and political parties that dominate society and the political agenda.s excelle

Tow their shitty little bigoted rock out into middle of the Atlantic.

I'm afraid the standard of the Greenock Grand wizards posts just aren't my thing and gave up after reading this one .

[LongTimeLurker]

A lot of people in Scotland have a very narrow picture of NI that revolves around crude Old Firm related stereotypes and assume that everybody in NI is like the stereotypical Rangers/Celtic supporter from Harthill/Carfin and shares their world view. Found this youtube clip recently from the 80s of a Scottish flute band in Londonderry/Derry that shows the sort of mutual bewilderment that can happen when a flute band member from the west of Scotland runs into a more educated individual from Ulster, who doesn't fit the stereotype:

The prejudiced utterances from Greenock are in a similar sort of vein of not being able to move beyond narrow and crude stereotypes and show that a (not yet complete?) university education doesn't necessarily help to broaden a closed mind.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

I'm not saying the whole population of NI are bigots, that would be daft.

But you only have to the read VT's excellent analysis earlier in the thread to see that "normal" sections of the population have at the very least provided acquiescence to the bigoted and sectarian institutions and political parties that dominate society and the political agenda.

It's much easier to acquiesce when people have guns.

The Greenock wizard verges on a bigotry of his own when he attributes the bigotry of one/two group(s) to the whole of the population, blaming them for not overthrowing the paramilitaries when one of Europe's most sophisticated anti-terrorist police forces couldn't do so.

[Jacksgranda]

It's much easier to acquiesce when people have guns.

The Greenock wizard verges on a bigotry of his own when he attributes the bigotry of one/two group(s) to the whole of the population, blaming them for not overthrowing the paramilitaries when one of Europe's most sophisticated anti-terrorist police forces state colluding sectarian murder gangs couldn't do so.

I thought you would know the terminology. Tsk, tsk,

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Silly me; I forgot that?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I'm afraid the standard of the Greenock Grand wizards posts just aren't my thing and gave up after reading this one .

I don't think Co. Down has been the same since Richard Whitely left

[Co.Down Hibee]

to be honest i often wish i had been the one who gave rachel riley her start.....fnarr!

[vikingTON]

Paramilitaries don't and cannot operate without the assistance of the wider communities. Which is why every nutjob shooter in the US or incompetent suicide bomber like the Glasgow Airport mob aren't actually running a planned forty year campaign of atrocities - without a network involving substantial shared knowledge, organised violence isn't possible.

And that an anti-terrorist force couldn't root it out points above all to the degree of support by the non-existent 'decent majority', who have contributed absolutely nothing in their own powers to wards creating a non-sectarian, less-of-a-shithole than the failed statelet.

[Sweet Pete]

Paramilitaries don't and cannot operate without the assistance of the wider communities. Which is why every nutjob shooter in the US or incompetent suicide bomber like the Glasgow Airport mob aren't actually running a planned forty year campaign of atrocities - without a network involving substantial shared knowledge, organised violence isn't possible.

And that an anti-terrorist force couldn't root it out points above all to the degree of support by the non-existent 'decent majority', who have contributed absolutely nothing in their own powers to wards creating a non-sectarian, less-of-a-shithole than the failed statelet.

This is the key issue for me. For all the posts on here about how these paramilitaries / racists / drug dealers etc etc are a mindless bigoted minority, they simply could not exert the power that they have, carry out the crimes that they do and avoid prosecution without the cooperation and approval of the wider communities within which they operate, whether that approval be tacit or outright. Northern Irish communities are collectively guilty of the crimes perpetuated by the violent groups within their midsts. This is not a case of 99% of ther population just wanting to get their heads down and get on with their lives, if it were then these groups would never have lasted as long as they have and life would have improved more for the average Northern Irish individual. If a paramilitary organisation opened up in the middle of a Scottish town then they would absolutely not have the backing of the community and the police would have them shut down before they could really get going. The divided and sectarian politics and attitudes of the Northern Irish population are what has allowed these groups to flourish. To now turn around and say that they are unwelcome and that they don't enjoy the support of the community is pure revisionism.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Paramilitaries don't and cannot operate without the assistance of the wider communities. Which is why every nutjob shooter in the US or incompetent suicide bomber like the Glasgow Airport mob aren't actually running a planned forty year campaign of atrocities - without a network involving substantial shared knowledge, organised violence isn't possible.

And that an anti-terrorist force couldn't root it out points above all to the degree of support by the non-existent 'decent majority', who have contributed absolutely nothing in their own powers to wards creating a non-sectarian, less-of-a-shithole than the failed statelet.

A suicide bomber would have to be incredibly incompetent to carry out a 40 year campaign. Surely they'd have given up before then and figured that suicide bombing's not for them

[Jacksgranda]

A suicide bomber would have to be incredibly incompetent to carry out a 40 year campaign. Surely they'd have given up before then and figured that suicide bombing's not for them

(They'd maybe "persuade" their community to help them out.)

[LongTimeLurker]

...Northern Irish communities are collectively guilty of the crimes perpetuated by the violent groups within their midsts...

Bollocks. There were parts of NI that the Troubles barely even affected where the two communities continued to live side by side. How do you explain that away? The problem with human psychology is that for a lot of people, other groups of people such as "failed statelet" inhabitants wind up being forced to fit a narrow stereotype because of the effect of Dunbar's number on the human mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

In an environment of low-intensity armed conflict like NI during the Troubles, the next step on from that dodgy piece of logic due to the way that the human brain is wired is the justification of random tit-for-tat murders of any member of the other community regardless of whether they had any paramilitary involvment.

[Sweet Pete]

Bollocks. There were parts of NI that the Troubles barely even affected where the two communities continued to live side by side. How do you explain that away? The problem with human psychology is that for a lot of people, other groups of people such as "failed statelet" inhabitants wind up being forced to fit a narrow stereotype because of the effect of Dunbar's number on the human mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

In an environment of low-intensity armed conflict like NI during the Troubles, the next step on from that dodgy piece of logic due to the way that the human brain is wired is the justification of random tit-for-tat murders of any member of the other community regardless of whether they had any paramilitary involvment.

So there were some parts of a tiny area where people managed to live with people from a slightly different religious sect without fire bombing each other. Wow, what a successful society.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

So there were some parts of a tiny area where people managed to live with people from a slightly different religious sect without fire bombing each other. Wow, what a successful society.

Nobody said it was a successful society but Northern Ireland did, and does, have lots of people who wanted, and still want, peace. We never really went in for fire bombing either.

Even during the worst of the Troubles I was socialising with people from the other side, (Tynie has had the pleasure of meeting them), despite this going against the paramilitaries diktats, but to go any further against them would have ended in my knees being rearranged, and I'm afraid I wasn't brave enough for that. There were areas that the paramilitaries enjoyed wide scale report, but as explained before, these tended to be the most deprived and worst educated areas.

Now try and reality check and stop paraphrasing VT's posts for him..................and learn that Northern Ireland is a country

This is the key issue for me. For all the posts on here about how these paramilitaries / racists / drug dealers etc etc are a mindless bigoted minority, they simply could not exert the power that they have, carry out the crimes that they do and avoid prosecution without the cooperation and approval of the wider communities within which they operate, whether that approval be tacit or outright. Northern Irish communities are collectively guilty of the crimes perpetuated by the violent groups within their midsts. This is not a case of 99% of ther population just wanting to get their heads down and get on with their lives, if it were then these groups would never have lasted as long as they have and life would have improved more for the average Northern Irish individual. If a paramilitary organisation opened up in the middle of a Scottish town then they would absolutely not have the backing of the community and the police would have them shut down before they could really get going. The divided and sectarian politics and attitudes of the Northern Irish population are what has allowed these groups to flourish. To now turn around and say that they are unwelcome and that they don't enjoy the support of the community is pure revisionism.

So, would you give evidence against a well established and heavily armed paramilitary grouping? You would face a punishment beating, or worse? I imagine that it would be a bit like giving evidence against one of Glasgow's established crime gangs.

Ordinary people still went about their lives, drinking in the pubs paramilitaries tended not to use and avoiding them at all costs by going places they didn't really go. I know because that's how I survived without coming into any discernible contact with them, despite them living nearby. Of course some supported them, more than should have because they wouldn't have existed otherwise, but to say whole communities are culpable is bullshit.

Paramilitaries don't and cannot operate without the assistance of the wider communities. Which is why every nutjob shooter in the US or incompetent suicide bomber like the Glasgow Airport mob aren't actually running a planned forty year campaign of atrocities - without a network involving substantial shared knowledge, organised violence isn't possible.

Of course they had a network of shared knowledge, but they didn't share it with everyone, nor does that make people who choose to ignore them through fear culpable. I knew where the local UVF/UDA drinking dens were, so I avoided them like the plague, as did my friends. Should we have stopped an RUC man and said, "Mister, that's a paramilitary pub?" to try and win that week's "Here's some blindingly obvious things you already knew" competition. Believe it or not, evidence is needed to convict them.

Incidentally, the violence isn't always organised, I've seen it flare up out of nothing at all.

[Sweet Pete]

Nobody said it was a successful society but Northern Ireland did, and does, have lots of people who wanted, and still want, peace. We never really went in for fire bombing either.

Even during the worst of the Troubles I was socialising with people from the other side, (Tynie has had the pleasure of meeting them), despite this going against the paramilitaries diktats, but to go any further against them would have ended in my knees being rearranged, and I'm afraid I wasn't brave enough for that. There were areas that the paramilitaries enjoyed wide scale report, but as explained before, these tended to be the most deprived and worst educated areas.

Now try and reality check and stop paraphrasing VT's posts for him..................and learn that Northern Ireland is a country

So, would you give evidence against a well established and heavily armed paramilitary grouping? You would face a punishment beating, or worse? I imagine that it would be a bit like giving evidence against one of Glasgow's established crime gangs.

Ordinary people still went about their lives, drinking in the pubs paramilitaries tended not to use and avoiding them at all costs by going places they didn't really go. I know because that's how I survived without coming into any discernible contact with them, despite them living nearby. Of course some supported them, more than should have because they wouldn't have existed otherwise, but to say whole communities are culpable is bullshit.

Of course they had a network of shared knowledge, but they didn't share it with everyone, nor does that make people who choose to ignore them through fear culpable. I knew where the local UVF/UDA drinking dens were, so I avoided them like the plague, as did my friends. Should we have stopped an RUC man and said, "Mister, that's a paramilitary pub?" to try and win that week's "Here's some blindingly obvious things you already knew" competition. Believe it or not, evidence is needed to convict them.

Incidentally, the violence isn't always organised, I've seen it flare up out of nothing at all.

If a murderous gang claimed to represent my home and my beliefs I would be appalled and, though I would, of course, be at pains to protect my own and my family's safety, I would actively encourage the local community to oust these villians from our midst. That's why I said that all communities in Northern Ireland are jointly and commonly responsible for the crimes carried out by groups in their names. If you don't have the local community close ranks and exert pressure on these groups to cease, or at least to cease claiming they're acting in your interests, then how can anyone outside of that sphere determine whether they do act on your behalf or not? It's not enough to simply have the local MP say "These are a violent minority opposed to peace" after the fact, it has to happen continually, they need to know that they aren't welcome, if they aren't welcome that is.