All things Dundee FC

[Daydream]

Meh. Not disappointed, would prefer a natural *left footer* if honest.

^^^ big team found.

[capt_oats]

On 8/19/2018 at 17:05, Ludo*1 said:

I done some number crunching a couple of year back and here's the results now including McCann's record for comparative reasons:

Neil McCann - GP: 59 W21 D9 L29. WR: 35.59%

Paul Hartley - GP: 138 W: 46 D: 37 L: 55. WR: 33.33%.

John Brown - GP: 39. W: 18. D: 8. L: 13. WR: 46.15%

Barry Smith - GP: 102. W: 39 D: 27 L: 36. WR: 38.24%

Gordon Chisholm - GP: 21. W: 8 D: 5. L: 8 WR: 38.09%

Jocky Scott - GP: 65. W: 31. D: 13. L: 21. WR: 47.69%

Alex Rae - GP: 97. W: 42. D: 22. L: 33. WR: 43.29%

Alan Kernaghan - GP: 37. W: 9 D: 16 L: 12 WR: 24.32%

Jim Duffy - GP: 142. W: 44. D: 38. L: 60 WR: 30.99%

Ivano Bonetti - GP: 90 W: 29 D: 21 L: 40 WR: 32.22%

Jocky Scott - GP: 95 W: 35 D: 18 L: 42 WR: 36.84%

John McCormack - GP: 47 W: 22 D: 15 L: 10 WR: 46.81%

Jim Duffy - GP: 137 W: 57 D: 42 L: 38 WR: 41.61%

The problem with the win % as a comparative stat in McCann's case is that it'll be bumped a bit by the introduction of the group stages of the LC. So 6 of those  21 wins have come against lower league sides at that stage of the LC competition (not including the DABs at the knockout stage last season). Don't get me wrong a win's a win but it definitely skews things a bit if you're making comparisons with other Dundee managers who didn't have a similar set of fixtures.

In our case Robinson has a 45.7% win rate overall at the moment which places him 2nd marginally behind McCall in terms of our recent managers but a fair amount of that record has been boosted by cup wins (though we've been drawn against Premiership opposition at every round in the knock out stages). His league record is 32.6% win and 46.1% loss which obviously paints a slightly different picture.

Stripping away cup competitions from McCann's record it looks like his league numbers are such;

McCann - League
16/17 - P 5 W 2 D 1 L 2 F 5 A 9 GD -4 Pts 7 
17/18 - P 38 W 11 D 6 L 21 F 36 A 57 GD -21 Pts 39
18/19 - P 2  W 0 D 0 L 2 F 1 A 3 GD -2 Pts 0

Total: P 45 W 13 D 7 L 25 F 42 A 69 GD -27 Pts 46 = 0.97 1.02 PPG (28% win, 55.5% loss)

I suppose the eye-opener is that he's apparently lost over half his league games. A 1 PPG return means that he's going to just hit the 38 point mark needed to pretty much guarantee safety (though I'm not sure that's necessarily going to be the total needed for safety this season). Over the course of a season 0.97 1.02 points per game would have you on 38.76 pts. 

Fwiw: that's not a dig at McCann, it's 100% an observation. There's nothing to say that he can't turn things around or improve things (there's definite room for improvement there after all) but if you're talking about someone who's now had over a full season in charge then that's a more than fair body of work to be judged on IMO.

For comparison, here's Hartley's league record, from what I can gauge via the league tables on WhoScored.com:

Dundee - Hartley

League
13/14 (Championship) - P 14 W 9 D 2 L 3 F 18 A 6 GD +12 Pts 29
14/15 - P 38 W 11 D 12 L 15 F 46 A 57 GD -11 Pts 45
15/16 - P 38 W 11 D 15 L 12 F 53 A 57 GD -4  Pts 48
16/17 - P 33 W 8 D 6 L 19 F 33 A 53 GD -20 Pts 30

Total: P 123 W 39 D 35 L 49 F 150 A 173  GD -23 Pts 160 = 1.30 PPG (31.7% win)
(Premiership - P 109 W 30 D 33 L 46 F 132 A 167 GD -35 Pts 123 = 1.12 PPG (27.5% win, 42.2% loss))

Edited August 22, 2018 by capt_oats
I noticed I'd fucked McCann's PPG. I'd divided the number of game by the number of points. He's actually marginally over 1 PPG rather than just under.

[Ylf]

You on the monkey dust mate?

he scores goals we don’t. Just a suggestion [emoji1]

[harry94]

32 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

The problem with the win % as a comparative stat in McCann's case is that it'll be bumped a bit by the introduction of the group stages of the LC. So 6 of those  21 wins have come against lower league sides at that stage of the LC competition (not including the DABs at the knockout stage last season). Don't get me wrong a win's a win but it definitely skews things a bit if you're making comparisons with other Dundee managers who didn't have a similar set of fixtures.

In our case Robinson has a 45.7% win rate overall at the moment which places him 2nd marginally behind McCall in terms of our recent managers but a fair amount of that record has been boosted by cup wins (though we've been drawn against Premiership opposition at every round in the knock out stages). His league record is 32.6% win and 46.1% loss which obviously paints a slightly different picture.

Stripping away cup competitions from McCann's record it looks like his league numbers are such;

McCann - League
16/17 - P 5 W 2 D 1 L 2 F 5 A 9 GD -4 Pts 7 
17/18 - P 38 W 11 D 6 L 21 F 36 A 57 GD -21 Pts 39
18/19 - P 2  W 0 D 0 L 2 F 1 A 3 GD -2 Pts 0

Total: P 45 W 13 D 7 L 25 F 42 A 69 GD -27 Pts 46 = 0.97 PPG (28% win, 55.5% loss)

I suppose the eye-opener is that he's apparently lost over half his league games. A < 1 PPG return means that he's going to be struggling to hit the 38 point mark needed to pretty much guarantee safety (though I'm not sure that's necessarily going to be the total needed for safety this season). Over the course of a season 0.97 points per game would have you on 36.86 pts. 

Fwiw: that's not a dig at McCann, it's 100% an observation. There's nothing to say that he can't turn things around or improve things (there's definite room for improvement there after all) but if you're talking about someone who's now had over a full season in charge then that's a more than fair body of work to be judged on IMO.

For comparison, here's Hartley's league record, from what I can gauge via the league tables on WhoScored.com:

Dundee - Hartley

League
13/14 (Championship) - P 14 W 9 D 2 L 3 F 18 A 6 GD +12 Pts 29
14/15 - P 38 W 11 D 12 L 15 F 46 A 57 GD -11 Pts 45
15/16 - P 38 W 11 D 15 L 12 F 53 A 57 GD -4  Pts 48
16/17 - P 33 W 8 D 6 L 19 F 33 A 53 GD -20 Pts 30

Total: P 123 W 39 D 35 L 49 F 150 A 173  GD -23 Pts 160 = 1.30 PPG (31.7% win)
(Premiership - P 109 W 30 D 33 L 46 F 132 A 167 GD -35 Pts 123 = 1.12 PPG (27.5% win, 42.2% loss))

Hartley was derided at the time for his poor win record which is roughly similar to McCann's if you take into account his first season and a bit in the First Division and then in arguably one of the poorest top flights we've ever seen (Hearts, Hibs and Rangers all out of the division).

The thing that Hartley could always do though was grinding out draws. McCann doesn't seem to have managed that and games where we play well and seem to look worthy of taking a win from, we don't even manage to obtain a point from and just seem to be really open. That's a massive problem.

Saturday really puts the pressure on him to prove that the side, which he's now built, can be resilient and massively improve on that but he's so far struggled to do that for more than a couple of games so far.  As negatively as they are perceived for being boring, the likes of Robinson, Wright and Levein are effective managers because they know how to defensively prepare a side, it's a similar story with Clarke (who I'm sure will have taken a lot working with Mourinho who is arguably one of the best defensive coaches in the game).

It's easy to blame the players but it's quite easy to see Ayr were drilled to play to our weaknesses on Saturday with the high balls on the right side in the second half where we had a young player who struggles aerially. Within an instant, we could have introduced Cammy Kerr and a back three to allow Curran to push further up but this option was not taken despite how much we were floundering. We don't do that when we go behind though, it's just ultra attacking panic while the opposition just wait for us to gift them.

Sometimes, his game management just reminds me of how I feel an emotive fan would make substitutes and all the focus of change is on the attack. When we had a couple of good runs last season with consistency and some control of our games, he was derided as a 'negative clueless b*****d' but it got points on the board.

[Juantwothree]

Anymore info on the trialist from yesterday? 

[ah-dee]

Anymore info on the trialist from yesterday? 

ive been waiting on you posting bud!

 

edited for a typo!

[DigOutYourSoul]

I'm assuming based on the fact there zero footage been posted on Dee TV that something is moving with regards to the Austrian and they don't want to release any footage of the game he's played in. 

[ah-dee]

I'm assuming based on the fact there zero footage been posted on Dee TV that something is moving with regards to the Austrian and they don't want to release any footage of the game he's played in. 

do they usual show reserve or development game highlights?

[DigOutYourSoul]

16 minutes ago, ah-dee said:

34 minutes ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

I'm assuming based on the fact there zero footage been posted on Dee TV that something is moving with regards to the Austrian and they don't want to release any footage of the game he's played in. 

do they usual show reserve or development game highlights?

The under 18s goals were on Dee TV within 12 hours yesterday, that was the first reserve game of the season yesterday so maybe they're just not going to be showing any footage of the reserve games. 

They normally post something on either Twitter or Dee TV. 

[Juantwothree]

2 hours ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

I'm assuming based on the fact there zero footage been posted on Dee TV that something is moving with regards to the Austrian and they don't want to release any footage of the game he's played in. 

He will probably train with the squad for another few days if he was any good. Rumour is that it's the Austrian they had on trial across the road 

[DigOutYourSoul]

12 minutes ago, Juantwothree said:

He will probably train with the squad for another few days if he was any good. Rumour is that it's the Austrian they had on trial across the road 

I think he's been with the squad since the middle of last week. 

Not sure it's Toni Vastic, though, based on the photo.

[Juantwothree]

1 minute ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

I think he's been with the squad since the middle of last week. 

Not sure it's Toni Vastic, though, based on the photo.

Somebody put a pic if him up on TDBF and it does look like him. All guess work tho tbf

[Juantwothree]

Coulibaily signs for Partick, why the f**k didnt we go for him

[Crawford]

27 minutes ago, Juantwothree said:

Coulibaily signs for Partick, why the f**k didnt we go for him

Came on here to say the same but we really droped the ball there.

[DigOutYourSoul]

My initial thought on Coulibaly is that there's been a technicality in his contract which Partick been clever enough to exploit. Something along the lines of "can't play for a top flight team" - for example. 

Aberdeen and, I'm sure it was Hearts, have both said they couldn't get a deal done because of the legalities - or at least intimated that's the case. 

I don't think it's necessarily a cut and dry case of missing out on him because we didn't make any attempt. 

He's a brilliant signing for Partick, however.

[Dee Bliss]

1 hour ago, Juantwothree said:

Coulibaily signs for Partick, why the f**k didnt we go for him

Shocking if we haven’t enquired about him. 

[Dee Man]

2 hours ago, Juantwothree said:

Coulibaily signs for Partick, why the f**k didnt we go for him

As soon as we heard Thistle were interested we dropped out for the cause of Operation Keep The Dabs Doon. 

[locheedee]

5 hours ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

I'm assuming based on the fact there zero footage been posted on Dee TV that something is moving with regards to the Austrian and they don't want to release any footage of the game he's played in. 

That's the Dundee goals on twitter now - no close ups at all tho and pretty low quality so no danger we're identifying anyone! (I struggled to recognize the Moose)

[DigOutYourSoul]

Boys exactly the same height as moussa when celebrating the goal. So is Pusic. I’m going to say it’s him based on that alone and that he’ll sign on Thursday.

[locheedee]

7 minutes ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

Boys exactly the same height as moussa when celebrating the goal. So is Pusic. I’m going to say it’s him based on that alone and that he’ll sign on Thursday.

I'd definitely not be surprised if we do see the emoji on Thursday but of the three guys mentioned I'd say he looks more like Prosenik or Vastic...

Totally going to be Pusic or some left field guy we've never heard of now though