Mr Bairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Does Yorkshire have it's own legal system? Is there particular funding for Yorkshire that is calculated based on what is spent on another region of England? Does it have it's own health service? Land Registry? Funding Council? Agricultural Wages Board? I could go on but I am sure that you get the main thrust of the argument: They are only comparable in terms of population. This does not make it equivalent to Scotland by any other measure. Yes, when we start looking into these arguments your point of view is more understandable. However Lichtie said earlier that he wouldn't mind not getting the government he voted for within Scotland, he only minds it within the framework of the UK, so basically he supports independence because he views himself as Scottish and Scottish alone and feels the union doesn't benefit Scotland. There is nothing wrong with this at all but there's no denying that identity politics is a big part of what attracts people to Scottish independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Unionism = another form of nationalism I hope the trolls on here can come to terms with this. Is anyone not a nationalist in some way or another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I have to say that the continuing britnat strategy of stating flat-out that Scotland is in no way different from a random council area in England is a winning one, which will convince many Scots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Yes, when we start looking into these arguments your point of view is more understandable. However Lichtie said earlier that he wouldn't mind not getting the government he voted for within Scotland, he only minds it within the framework of the UK, so basically he supports independence because he views himself as Scottish and Scottish alone and feels the union doesn't benefit Scotland. There is nothing wrong with this at all but there's no denying that identity politics is a big part of what attracts people to Scottish independence. Identity politics is part of everything. That's why human being organise themselves into nation-states in the first place. Its not a slur, just since the referendum campaign some have tried to use it as a slur against Scottish nationalism. Is anyone not a nationalist in some way or another? No, literally nobody on the planet isn't a nationalist of some form to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Yes, when we start looking into these arguments your point of view is more understandable. However Lichtie said earlier that he wouldn't mind not getting the government he voted for within Scotland, he only minds it within the framework of the UK, so basically he supports independence because he views himself as Scottish and Scottish alone and feels the union doesn't benefit Scotland. There is nothing wrong with this at all but there's no denying that identity politics is a big part of what attracts people to Scottish independence. I wasn't commenting on anyone elses posts, just your one. The one in which you attempted to justify Yorkshire and Scotland being compared in a similar manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I have to say that the continuing britnat strategy of stating flat-out that Scotland is in no way different from a random council area in England is a winning one, which will convince many Scots. And not offensive in the slightest. I've always seen Scotland as a region of England, of equal importance to Leeds or Berwick or Yorkshire. No problem with that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 But unless we engage with the system properly, we'll never get our independence. Bridges need to be built with no voters, particularly those who continue to vote labour and the middle classes who voted no because of 'economic uncertainty'. Calling them cowards, britnats or idiots (I'm guilty of the latter more than the former 2, particularly to SLAB voters!!) isn't helping anyone and will just further harden their desire to vote no. If we can return a big number of SNP MPs, as looks likely at the moment, we really need them to push progressive politics positively. We're never going to have a better chance to improve the yes/SNP image as we will after May. Totally agree, this failure to engage with anyone with doubts about independence other than calling them anti Scottish is really off putting, and I'm a Yes voter. FuzzyAffro seems to see himself as a Scottish McCarthy in charge rooting out traitors guilty of Un-Scottish activites, which is basically anyone who disagrees with him. You sway people by pointing out the benefits of Independence, not by spluttering kneejerk reactions to every point made by Unionists who know what buttons to push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If we were all part of a European state, or a northern hemisphere state run by Berlin or Beijing and I didn't think it was working, and I was presented with an opinion that would bring decision making closer to home for whatever geographical area, and I thought that would be better, then I would vote for it. As an argument though, I wouldn't pretend I had less of a say in the current structure than someone else from Frankfurt or Bombay. There would be many valid arguments without needing to resort to that one which I don't believe is a valid one. My argument is never trying to suggest that Yorkshire is as important as a part of the UK as Scotland is. It's about individuals and how much of a say the have in the running of what we currently have in terms of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 And not offensive in the slightest. I've always seen Scotland as a region of England, of equal importance to Leeds or Berwick or Yorkshire. No problem with that at all. Indeed. We should count ourselves fortunate to be mentioned in the same breath as so many of these wonderful regions of England - The MotherLand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Totally agree, this failure to engage with anyone with doubts about independence other than calling them anti Scottish is really off putting, and I'm a Yes voter. FuzzyAffro seems to see himself as a Scottish McCarthy in charge rooting out traitors guilty of Un-Scottish activites, which is basically anyone who disagrees with him. You sway people by pointing out the benefits of Independence, not by spluttering kneejerk reactions to every point made by Unionists who know what buttons to push. I find this offensive tripe. Some people on here are full of shit and raging Britnats who deserve to be treated with contempt. So I do that, and make no apology. I never attack anyone personally only their politics and never anyone who doesn't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If we were all part of a European state, or a northern hemisphere state run by Berlin or Beijing and I didn't think it was working, and I was presented with an opinion that would bring decision making closer to home for whatever geographical area, and I thought that would be better, then I would vote for it. As an argument though, I wouldn't pretend I had less of a say in the current structure than someone else from Frankfurt or Bombay. There would be many valid arguments without needing to resort to that one which I don't believe is a valid one. My argument is never trying to suggest that Yorkshire is as important as a part of the UK as Scotland is. It's about individuals and how much of a say the have in the running of what we currently have in terms of government. Trying to make it about individuals in order to trivialise Scottish nationalism. Its not about that champ, we aren't proposing becoming independent individually, we are talking about our country becoming independent. These fatuous comparisons you come out with in utter desperation are laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I find this offensive tripe. Some people on here are full of shit and raging Britnats who deserve to be treated with contempt. So I do that, and make no apology. I never attack anyone personally only their politics and never anyone who doesn't deserve it. But you do realise it's totally ineffectual and counter productive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddly optomistic Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I find this offensive tripe. Some people on here are full of shit and raging Britnats who deserve to be treated with contempt. So I do that, and make no apology. I never attack anyone personally only their politics and never anyone who doesn't deserve it. If they are raging Britnats and full of shit then why are you bothering to reply to them. Surely that just gives them more of a platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I don't, no. The people I have a go at would never vote yes anyway, but their nonsensical views might pollute the minds of some that would so deserve to be slated. I think exposing their views for the utter shite they are is important and beneficial to the yes campaign long-term. I also said before we won't have another referendum for years, its not even been one year yet. So I am entitled to still be angry and think now is the time for recriminations. We had to put up with years of shite now we're giving some back and I don't see any problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If they are raging Britnats and full of shit then why are you bothetring to reply to them. Surely that just gives them more of a platform. No, I have already caused jmothecat and BerwickMad to have to shut up and stop peddling their pish a couple of times each. Eventually if you treat their nonsensical views with the utter contempt they deserve every time they are aired they will stop airing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I don't, no. The people I have a go at would never vote yes anyway, but their nonsensical views might pollute the minds of some that would so deserve to be slated. I think exposing their views for the utter shite they are is important and beneficial to the yes campaign long-term. I also said before we won't have another referendum for years, its not even been one year yet. So I am entitled to still be angry and think now is the time for recriminations. We had to put up with years of shite now we're giving some back and I don't see any problem with that. I do, putting people off the SNP just before an election is the worst possible timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I do, putting people off the SNP just before an election is the worst possible timing. And who do you think is going to be voting SNP out of jmothecat, BerwickMad and RedRob? They're the three I have a go at, which ones do you think are likely to be SNP voters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Totally agree, this failure to engage with anyone with doubts about independence other than calling them anti Scottish is really off putting, and I'm a Yes voter. FuzzyAffro seems to see himself as a Scottish McCarthy in charge rooting out traitors guilty of Un-Scottish activites, which is basically anyone who disagrees with him. You sway people by pointing out the benefits of Independence, not by spluttering kneejerk reactions to every point made by Unionists who know what buttons to push. ^^^ This guy gets it. It's a long game. First step has to be voting down a majority of SNP MPs from Scotland, then proper engagement with whoever the majority party is at Westminster during the next Parliament. There's plenty of potential yes voters out there. Civilised conversations with those who voted no help as you get to understand their thinking. Blasting them as cowards or britnats (some of the no voters I know actually viewed a no vote as the more patriotic option) will distance them further. The Yes campaign needs to start building the economic argument now. I'm all for the SNP arguing for Full Fiscal Autonomy for that very reason. It'll be fucking tough, no doubt, and we'll all have to accept increased taxes or reduced public services if that was to happen. The benefits to the independence argument in such a scenario are massive however. Once the books are balanced, which they would be, we'll be able to show ourselves able to run our own affairs and all of a sudden the idea of independence is more palatable to those right wingers who don't just consider themselves British. I'm not sure that's achieveable in this Parliament, but it's got to be the next aim IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddly optomistic Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I would suggest that having the same argument over and over is not going to achieve much. I don't think terms like Britnat or cybernat help the cause of reasoned debate. Reasoned debate is the only way people are going to be persuaded one way or the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 And who do you think is going to be voting SNP out of jmothecat, BerwickMad and RedRob? They're the three I have a go at, which ones do you think are likely to be SNP voters? Your doing exactly what they want you to do, putting off undecided voters reading this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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