Cruoninga Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I post this in here, because it also relates to foreign leagues (or just one specific foreign league). A great aspect of Scottish football culture are the domestic cup tournaments, and especially the semi-finals and finals at neutral venues. It keeps impressing me that Scottish clubs from all levels manage to get their fans out in numbers that far exceeds their league average when they go to Hampden, or another neutral venue. It would be great if such events would also be possible in the Netherlands, because the Dutch cup culture is very dull in comparison. There is just one domestic tournament, and besides the final, all rounds are played at the venue of one of the two competing teams. The reason for this is the need for total crowd separation. Not just the two hooligan firms have to be kept in check, at an increasing number of fixtures all fans going to the match are kept separated throughout the entire day. This means that away fans have to travel in by buses that go straight to the ground, or (when a more lenient regulation is considered an option) away fans can travel to the ground by car; but the number of "car tickets" is always limited and fans are forced to exchange the car-ticket for the actual match ticket at some remote location outside the city bounds, within a certain timeframe so that they will not have the opportunity to travel into the city center for a beer before the match. At the majority of fixtures, away fans are kept entirely out of public transport, the city center, and neither are desired to wander around in the vicinity of the ground. Consequently, traveling to away matches is very unpopular, and it is not unusual that clubs with a +15.000 home average bring under 200 fans to away fixtures. This is not different for cup games, so you can imagine how poor the atmosphere is in quarter- and semi-finals, when the away team only has a bunch of fans present. Playing at a neutral venue in the semi-final is not an option, for the operation to keep three large sets of fans apart (the hooligans from the city hosting the match will also get into the mix) is too expansive and Dutch mayors have the authority to ban sporting events when they fear trouble, leaving the Dutch FA with a problem. The final is always at the Feyenoord Stadium (even if Feyenoord is competing), with both sets of fans having the opportunity to get an equal amount of tickets. Total crowd separation is possible at that ground because it has a shielded train station from where a tunnel leads directly into the ground, so one team can come by train and the other can come by bus. Very few other grounds have that facility. Ajax and Feyenoord fans are banned from each other's matches all together. This meant that a few years back, when Ajax and Feyenoord played the final, the match was played over two legs with only home fans present at each occasion. Ajax lifted the cup in an empty Feyenoord stadium with none of their fans present. It was a complete non-event. I have often wondered why this culture exists in the Netherlands and crowd mixture such as in Scotland and England is not possible. I expect that even a Dutch "Challenge Cup" would not be possible, for crowd trouble is not limited to the top flight. So my question: how do you do it? Was there ever the need in Scotland to separate football crowds on a large scale? Has there been trouble around Hampden fixtures in the past? I know of some infamous Celtic-Rangers riots on the Hampden pitch, but even the encounters between those two seem to be trouble-free more often than not? And if there ever was a period of regular crowd trouble, how was it solved? Hooliganism in the Netherlands is actually on the decline in the last couple of decades, but large-scale crowd mixture still seems very far off. So, how to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I believe old firm matches do Involve some form of segregation outside the ground. The police do try and keep fans apart in other Hampden fixtures, giving different travel advice etc, there was some trouble at the Dunfermline Falkirk semi and this resulted in the police making a last minute decision for pars fans to stay behind for 15 mins, something they were unable to do as they had to open the exit gates to avoid a crush as many headed for the exits(who was going to stay and watch there rivals celebrate ffs.) some had emailed the police about there actions and they basically tried to blame pars fans for approaching the ground from the wrong direction. As for what the dutch can do, well without the police relaxing their sledgehammer to crush a walnut approach it's difficult, perhaps setting up fan zones that away fans can access before the game, they would still be seperated but it would allow fans to relax grab a beer and warm up their vocal cords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I believe old firm matches do Involve some form of segregation outside the ground. They do, you don't get near the opposition fans outside the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addie Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Reading your post suggests that the only problem is the hooligans. The authorities are quite rightly ensuring safety first. The cup games do sound pretty shit right enough, but as the hooligan element dies away the atmosphere will probably improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Not really got any insight into the hooligan side of things... but it has to be said that many countries on the continent have no great tradition of the cup tournament. Some of them only actually formed a cup when the Cup-Winners' Cup was established, and some of them would probably scrap it were it not for UEFA requiring them to have one (with its associated EL slot). Often they are poorly attended, not taken seriously until the sharp end, dumped onto midweek, or badly affected by seeding... the Italian Cup is a prime example. We've much more of a 'cup tradition' in the British Isles. That is not so much the case in the Netherlands, but even there the tournament only started in 1956 (having been revived in 1947 but stopped in 1950). That resumption was actually the same season their national league began. Maybe this accounts for their apparent lack of 'cup fever'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moo Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Nothing compares to the Dundee Derby. Drink with each other before and after the match, hate each other during the game and there is no segregation what so ever before and after. Dundee = sound place and sound c***s. Edit: I love the Scottish cup due to it being on the weekend. League cup is just a pain in the arse and I rarely get to matches due to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcat1990 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 They do, you don't get near the opposition fans outside the stadium. How does it work with both sets of fans getting on the train to Hampden though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 What is like when it comes to the Europa league cup playoff? Better? Worse? Surely there is a bit of interest towards that in the Netherlands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 How does it work with both sets of fans getting on the train to Hampden though? I don't bother with public transport. Not worth it with so many fans, I usually walk back into the city centre from Hampden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrif John Bunnell Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The French Cup is the best cup. About a million teams enter, including clubs from their overseas territories and there are shocks galore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The French Cup is the best cup. About a million teams enter, including clubs from their overseas territories and there are shocks galore. About time we like Orkney etc play in the Scottish cup IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curva Nord Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The Coppa Italia is a farce... unless you win it of course!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruoninga Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 What is like when it comes to the Europa league cup playoff? Better? Worse? Surely there is a bit of interest towards that in the Netherlands? That has been a successful innovation indeed, because it has been acknowledged that it makes the mid-table games much more interesting. But the turn-out is still lower than in the regular league games, which is somewhat weird as it is the climax to the season. As if the quarter and semi-final would draw bigger crowds than the final. However, the play-offs for the Champions League qualifier (introduced at the same moment as the EL play-offs) was only very short-lived. It was criticized as soon as the number 5 (FC Groningen) of the regular season kicked out the number 2 (AZ; then managed by Louis van Gaal, who was not amused) in the first round of the first year running. This was considered "unfair" to AZ, which is also weird as the possibility of the number 2 losing its CL-qualifier spot was the whole essence of the thing. But this apparently wasn't realized until it materialized. Now the Netherlands have lost their extra CL spot anyway. I like parsforlife's ideas of fanzones. Maybe that can be a first step towards some form of normalization. A lot of logistical issues to overcome (and a lot of parties actually don't want visiting away matches to become popular; such as the the mayors and the police) but it might be worth suggesting sometime. The specific problem in the Netherlands is not so much the hooligans, you have those basically everywhere, but the blurry line between 'normal supporters' and hooligans. Large groups of fanatical fans who do not consider themselves to be part of a firm might consider some form of incidental crowd trouble to be part of the experience. What I often heard: "we do not go looking for it, but we won't back down either if it so happens to come our ways". At the same time, firms do not tolerate normal fans on what they consider their turf; they barely discriminate between their colleague-trouble seekers and the normal fans. Celtic and Aberdeen fans have experienced some of this when visiting the Netherlands in recent years. I realize that their is some form of crowd separation in Scotland as well, but very minor in comparison. After the 2012 cup semi-final between Hibernian and Aberdeen fans were called over the stadium speaker to go to separate train stations, but this was not enforced in any way, nor was it necessary to do so. As I was not traveling from Edinburgh I had to go in a different direction, making my way on my own through the Aberdeen fans both before and after the game. I was wearing Hibs colours, but nobody cared. I would never dare to do so in a similar situation in the Netherlands. Absolute guarantee that I would have at leas lost the flags that I was visibly carrying; few Dutch fans would let pass such an easy occasion to get a trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHallSaint Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The French Cup is the best cup. About a million teams enter, including clubs from their overseas territories and there are shocks galore. Agree 100% I'm sure it starts in July or August and the big clubs don't come into it until the 12th round or something similar to that. Over the years their have been some huge upsets with basically amateur sides reaching the semis etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruoninga Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Agree 100% I'm sure it starts in July or August and the big clubs don't come into it until the 12th round or something similar to that. Over the years their have been some huge upsets with basically amateur sides reaching the semis etc In the 1999-2000 season, fourth-division side Calais RUFC made the final after subsequently eliminating Lille (2nd tier at the time), a fifth division club, Cannes (2nd tier), Strasbourg (1st tier), and Bordeaux (1st tier). In the final against Nantes (also in the top tier) they were leading 1-0 at half time, but eventually lost 2-1 after a dodgy penalty: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Norway are the only country whose cup adds top division teams as far back as the Round of 128, IIRC. Cup replays have been phased-out in Greece, leaving only the British Isles (except Wales) using them, which is a shame. Some countries use 2-legs. Only Greece, San Marino, Sweden & Turkey have groupstages in their FA cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHallSaint Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 In the 1999-2000 season, fourth-division side Calais RUFC made the final after subsequently eliminating Lille (2nd tier at the time), a fifth division club, Cannes (2nd tier), Strasbourg (1st tier), and Bordeaux (1st tier). In the final against Nantes (also in the top tier) they were leading 1-0 at half time, but eventually lost 2-1 after a dodgy penalty: That's the most recent famous one but if you look back into the history of it their are quite a few similar stories of teams getting fairly far in the tournament. I've made quite a bit of cash betting the underdogs in this competition over the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 France have more of a similar cup tradition to ourselves, perhaps as they were another earlier adopter of leagues and professionalism. (Between the wars some players actually left the Football League, with its maximum wage, and moved to France - at least I think I'd read that somewhere). They also have a fairly successful League Cup which began in 1984. Another interesting tournament, of which I am not aware of any other equivalent, was their Coupe Charles Drago. It ran from 1953 until 1965 and involved clubs eliminated at each stage of the French Cup. Roughly speaking the 16 clubs eliminated in the French Cup Round of 32 would drop into CCD and play each other on the date of the next round... 8 winners would join the 8 clubs eliminated in the French Cup Round of 16... then it went on like this until the QFs. Quite an innovative idea, really. Another unusual feature was that, in CCD ties with teams from different levels, the club from the lower division progressed if the tie was drawn. An earlier tiebreaker was that the away club progressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 In the 1999-2000 season, fourth-division side Calais RUFC made the final after subsequently eliminating Lille (2nd tier at the time), a fifth division club, Cannes (2nd tier), Strasbourg (1st tier), and Bordeaux (1st tier). In the final against Nantes (also in the top tier) they were leading 1-0 at half time, but eventually lost 2-1 after a dodgy penalty: Calais. Vivre le rêve. © Charles Jeune, WATP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruoninga Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Total crowd segregation also means inside the ground. Count your blessings that in Scotland the view from the away section is just as good as that of the home support. Away stand at Go Ahead Eagles: Basically everywhere you have to look through barriers and nets, such as at NAC: Utrecht: It's the same in other countries. Away section at Napoli: Watching football in Scotland is great on many levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.