My model for reconstruction

[SpoonTon]

Can i ask why there is such desperation to keep 37 or more games a season? 30 is slightly less than we have now so is it just purely down to money? with less games overall there should be less shite games. there are plenty games that nae c**t cares about geting played on tuesdays nights with pish poor crowds. especialy games rescheduled. due to poor weather .some of these games can cost clubs more to put on than they make back.

a 30 season game would allow for a long break in january and early february. it keeps the league nice and simple (splits are gash) we have one of the longest seasons for a small country. the likes of norway sweeden even holland dont play as many league games as us.

also im keen on having 2 national devisions and regional bellow that . i dont see why we need to protect the likes of montrose or the shire when alot of those clubs have been doing nothing more than existing for years. automatic relegation from bottom teir should be brought in

A big part of it is down to money. Of course it is. You can't simply say that it works in other countries so we could manage as well. They operate in a different economic environment. The bottom line is, if you take 3 or 4 home games away that's an awful lot of money to make up elsewhere.

The other part is rather simple. People like attending football matches, so why reduce the number of games they can go to?

[effeffsee_the2nd]

people do like going to football matches but not as many as they used to. and alot of people realy dont like going to dark cold midweek games in february when the champions league is on the telly.

[ShawfieldAggro]

If those people are picky about watching their own team because if what else is on offer, what makes you think something better mightn't come up when the early season games are played in blistering sunshine?? Customers they may well be, but clubs have to maximise all potential streams of income. Even more so if Valerie decides Bert isn't getting to the title decider at home to Hibs because the grandwean has a fucking dance lesson. Supoorters need to start doing that.....supporting, and taking some responsibility by leading from the front and watching THEIR team. Plenty of you bleat about players, managers and everyone else having no commitment.....the cauld February replay away at Stranraer's your chance to prove yours.

[NoPapacNoParty]

It wont happen until we actually get promotion, otherwise it will just be an uproar that it was reconstructed for our benefit.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

If those people are picky about watching their own team because if what else is on offer, what makes you think something better mightn't come up when the early season games are played in blistering sunshine?? Customers they may well be, but clubs have to maximise all potential streams of income. Even more so if Valerie decides Bert isn't getting to the title decider at home to Hibs because the grandwean has a fucking dance lesson. Supoorters need to start doing that.....supporting, and taking some responsibility by leading from the front and watching THEIR team. Plenty of you bleat about players, managers and everyone else having no commitment.....the cauld February replay away at Stranraer's your chance to prove yours.

I hear this a lot especialy on one f where youre either a happy clapper or a dour faced f**k. im all for supporting my team thru thick and thin and so on but theyre not a charity . there isn't much of a market for this level of football in the cold and dark in January. you cant have professional sport without a market. if people don't want to pay to watch then youre in bother

[effeffsee_the2nd]

It wont happen until we actually get promotion, otherwise it will just be an uproar that it was reconstructed for our benefit.

the devisions cant be changed for another 2 seasons and even then there would have to be at least one seasons notice so a teams know the consiquences of their final league position

[DA Baracus]

I hear this a lot especialy on one f where youre either a happy clapper or a dour faced f**k. im all for supporting my team thru thick and thin and so on but theyre not a charity . there isn't much of a market for this level of football in the cold and dark in January. you cant have professional sport without a market. if people don't want to pay to watch then youre in bother

Except that's nonsense. Unless a team is doing really pish, crowds are consistent through winter, i.e. there is no drop off in attendances. There is no correlation between attendance figures and temperature and/or daylight.

[ShawfieldAggro]

I hear this a lot especialy on one f where youre either a happy clapper or a dour faced f**k. im all for supporting my team thru thick and thin and so on but theyre not a charity . there isn't much of a market for this level of football in the cold and dark in January. you cant have professional sport without a market. if people don't want to pay to watch then youre in bother

Single me out, why don't you. The rest of the post is utter shite. There clearly IS a market for football in its current yearly format.....there are just too many numpties in Scotland who believe more people actually give a shit about the game than those who actually attend. Winter in Scotland without football would probably increase the suicide rate by about six times, it's a miserable place which needs as little going on as possible when the sun's out so we can enjoy it. This is like the same stupid chat about how ridiculous the stadium thing in Dundee is, and that they ought to 'merge'......around 13,000.people in Dundee give enough of a f**k about football (thats 1 in 6) to watch their team. Take that away, and you have 67,000 or so with a team who don't care about it. Same goes for the family of four who will always pick Deep Sea World, the zoo or a trip to the seaside in a day like today than watch unfit diddies blow out their arse during the warm-up at Falkirk v Alloa. But, you're all for supporting through thick and thin....but....you either do or you don't.

[EdTheDuck]

Single me out, why don't you. The rest of the post is utter shite. There clearly IS a market for football in its current yearly format.....there are just too many numpties in Scotland who believe more people actually give a shit about the game than those who actually attend. Winter in Scotland without football would probably increase the suicide rate by about six times, it's a miserable place which needs as little going on as possible when the sun's out so we can enjoy it. This is like the same stupid chat about how ridiculous the stadium thing in Dundee is, and that they ought to 'merge'......around 13,000.people in Dundee give enough of a f**k about football (thats 1 in 6) to watch their team. Take that away, and you have 67,000 or so with a team who don't care about it. Same goes for the family of four who will always pick Deep Sea World, the zoo or a trip to the seaside in a day like today than watch unfit diddies blow out their arse during the warm-up at Falkirk v Alloa. But, you're all for supporting through thick and thin....but....you either do or you don't.

I agree with this completely. There is a legend that there's secret army of fans who are just waiting for the right conditions to be met (£10 to get in, summer football, 16 team league, the "German Model") and suddenly we'll have grounds bursting at the seams.

There isn't and we won't.

A winning team will bring in extra fans for as long as they're a winning team and then the 'extra' will gradually drift away again.

High stakes games will bring in extra fans (league deciders, European deciders, relegation & promotion deciders, playoffs, big cup games) but only for those high stakes games.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Single me out, why don't you. The rest of the post is utter shite. There clearly IS a market for football in its current yearly format.....there are just too many numpties in Scotland who believe more people actually give a shit about the game than those who actually attend. Winter in Scotland without football would probably increase the suicide rate by about six times, it's a miserable place which needs as little going on as possible when the sun's out so we can enjoy it. This is like the same stupid chat about how ridiculous the stadium thing in Dundee is, and that they ought to 'merge'......around 13,000.people in Dundee give enough of a f**k about football (thats 1 in 6) to watch their team. Take that away, and you have 67,000 or so with a team who don't care about it. Same goes for the family of four who will always pick Deep Sea World, the zoo or a trip to the seaside in a day like today than watch unfit diddies blow out their arse during the warm-up at Falkirk v Alloa. But, you're all for supporting through thick and thin....but....you either do or you don't.

I didnt single you out? crowds were much higher years ago. the people are out there.

[ShawfieldAggro]

I agree with this completely. There is a legend that there's secret army of fans who are just waiting for the right conditions to be met (£10 to get in, summer football, 16 team league, the "German Model") and suddenly we'll have grounds bursting at the seams.

There isn't and we won't.

A winning team will bring in extra fans for as long as they're a winning team and then the 'extra' will gradually drift away again.

High stakes games will bring in extra fans (league deciders, European deciders, relegation & promotion deciders, playoffs, big cup games) but only for those high stakes games.

Spot on, homie. Spot on.

[ShawfieldAggro]

I didnt single you out? crowds were much higher years ago. the people are out there.

Well, my eyesight clearly shows me being labelled in your earlier 'post' as either a cheerleader or a boo-boy. Which is my business if i am, but there's plenty more on here who disagree and who aren't having their character dished out to them. Come back to earth and join the humans, before anything else happens.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

the line youre refering to is about what someone will be labelled on another website. not anything about you personaly.

anyway the point remains. the population of scotland has gone up over the last 10 years but less people go to watch football than they used to. we have wall to wall tv coverage which we didnt have before. the bigger european leagues have widened the gap between us and them in the last 20 years. men cant tell their wife to give them peace and bugger off to the game unhindered anymore. i get that. still most clubs right now will probably be at the core minimum for regular support. aberdeen and hearts are riding high after good seasons but everyone else has plenty seats to put arses on. we now know that you cant solve thisproblem by borrowing large amounts of money to spend on players. so if we can improve the league and improve the experience and possibly add too clubs gates then its something we should look at seriously

[ShawfieldAggro]

I don't see whats hindering anyone telling the wife to bugger off and go to the games, in all of that. Clearly, that becomes personal choice. Which i'd say ought to be considered before rash choices are made. A majority of football supporters (the thick and thin ones) base their entire lives around the football season......holidays, weddings, etc are arranged often with the season in mind....the market may be smaller, but most of whats left falls into this category. How do you address the fall in hardcore numbers when the tourists are bored rigid after two games???

[RabidAl]

Honestly I'm not sure 14 is feasible. Should either be 10 or 16+

I don't think all the complication is worth moving to 14 teams. It just seems to me that 12 works better than 14. So if there's really a will for bigger leagues it would have to be 16 - and try to make that work financially.

Leagues of 14 appears decent superficially, in terms of satisfying what the fans supposedly want with 3 national divisions, a larger top tier and keeping a decent pool of full-time clubs in the second tier. I've always dismissed it too, though, mainly because playing home and away post-split (7/7 or 6/8) seems to take away the excitement of a short series of head-to-head deciders at the end of the season; one round of fixtures post-split gives this, but it means only 16 home games (in total), and is more difficult to keep fair. I don't have an issue with one team sitting out per round of post-split games with a 7/7 split, provided the bottom team in each section of 7 misses out on the last round of fixtures.

Since Doncaster's been talking again this week about re-structuring to reduce the number of games, albeit in relation to 'summer' football, maybe 14-14-14 and 7/7 splits would be looked at in terms of just one round of post-split fixtures (32 games in a 33-week league season)? To make it reasonably fair yet merit-based, you'd be looking at giving each team a post-split game at home against the team below them in the league, and then against every second team:

E.g. Home Games

(1st) Celtic vs. 2nd, 4th, 6th.

(2nd) Aberdeen vs. 3rd, 5th, 7th.

(3rd) Inverness vs. 4th, 6th, 1st.

(4th) St.Johnstone vs. 5th, 7th, 2nd.

(5th) Dundee Utd vs. 6th, 1st, 3rd.

(6th) Dundee vs. 7th, 2nd, 4th.

(7th) Hamilton vs. 1st, 3rd, 5th.

With the away games being found for Dundee, for example, by looking for their position (6th) in the other teams' home fixtures (vs. Celtic, Inverness, Dundee Utd). It's a bit tricky to fit the demands of that 'fairness' and 'merit' into a fixtures schedule, but here's a template for any post-split 7:

Wk 1: 5v6 / 4v7 / 2v3 (1).

Wk 2: 1v2 / 7v5 / 3v4 (6).

Wk 3: 6v2 / 4v5 / 7v1 (3).

Wk 4: 1v4 / 5v3 / 6v7 (2).

Wk 5: 1v6 / 2v5 / 7v3 (4).

Wk 6: 6v4 / 2v7 / 3v1 (5).

Wk 7: 3v6 / 5v1 / 4v2 (7).

The team in brackets sits out that week of fixtures (could have a rest or play friendlies vs. the other teams sitting out from other 7s); 1st at the split sits out the first games, 7th sits out the last games, the rest are a bit of a shuffle to stop there being too many consecutive homes or away matches per team.

It depends on how many games they'd be looking at cropping from the season in order to fit in a decent winter shut-down as to whether they'd consider a 32-game season, and it is a little complex, but it ticks a few boxes.

I'd be interested to see winter and summer breaks that allow the league season to be more closely aligned to the dates of UEFA competitions, with a winter break from the last weekend before xmas until mid-February, and a summer break from about June 10th to July 10th to accommodate the international tournaments, followed by league cup regions and this sort of league structure (with two legged play-off semi-finals and one-off finals)...

[RabidAl]

Premiership Championship Conference

1 Celtic CL 1 Rangers PR 1 Dunfermline PR

2 Aberdeen EL 2 Queen South PR 2 Ayr United PR

3 Inverness EPO_F 3 Falkirk PO_SF2 3 Stenhousemuir PO_SF2

4 St.Johnstone EPO_SF 4 Raith Rvs PO_SF1 4 Stirling Alb. PO_SF1

5 Dundee Utd EPO_SF 5 Dumbarton PO_SF2 5 Albion Rvs PO_SF2

6 Dundee 6 Livingston 6 Queen's Park

7 Hamilton 7 Alloa Ath. 7 Arbroath

8 Partick Th. 8 Cowdenbeath 8 East Fife

9 Ross County 9 Morton 9 Annan Ath.

10 Kilmarnock 10 Stranraer 10 Clyde

11 Motherwell 11 Forfar 11 Elgin City

12 St.Mirren PO_SF1 12 Brechin PO_SF1 12 Berwick

13 Hearts RL 13 Airdire RL 13 East Stirlingshire

14 Hibernian RL 14 Peterhead RL 14 Montrose RL

[Wilky1878]

Leagues of 14 appears decent superficially, in terms of satisfying what the fans supposedly want with 3 national divisions, a larger top tier and keeping a decent pool of full-time clubs in the second tier. I've always dismissed it too, though, mainly because playing home and away post-split (7/7 or 6/8) seems to take away the excitement of a short series of head-to-head deciders at the end of the season; one round of fixtures post-split gives this, but it means only 16 home games (in total), and is more difficult to keep fair. I don't have an issue with one team sitting out per round of post-split games with a 7/7 split, provided the bottom team in each section of 7 misses out on the last round of fixtures.

Since Doncaster's been talking again this week about re-structuring to reduce the number of games, albeit in relation to 'summer' football, maybe 14-14-14 and 7/7 splits would be looked at in terms of just one round of post-split fixtures (32 games in a 33-week league season)? To make it reasonably fair yet merit-based, you'd be looking at giving each team a post-split game at home against the team below them in the league, and then against every second team:

E.g. Home Games

(1st) Celtic vs. 2nd, 4th, 6th.

(2nd) Aberdeen vs. 3rd, 5th, 7th.

(3rd) Inverness vs. 4th, 6th, 1st.

(4th) St.Johnstone vs. 5th, 7th, 2nd.

(5th) Dundee Utd vs. 6th, 1st, 3rd.

(6th) Dundee vs. 7th, 2nd, 4th.

(7th) Hamilton vs. 1st, 3rd, 5th.

With the away games being found for Dundee, for example, by looking for their position (6th) in the other teams' home fixtures (vs. Celtic, Inverness, Dundee Utd). It's a bit tricky to fit the demands of that 'fairness' and 'merit' into a fixtures schedule, but here's a template for any post-split 7:

Wk 1: 5v6 / 4v7 / 2v3 (1).

Wk 2: 1v2 / 7v5 / 3v4 (6).

Wk 3: 6v2 / 4v5 / 7v1 (3).

Wk 4: 1v4 / 5v3 / 6v7 (2).

Wk 5: 1v6 / 2v5 / 7v3 (4).

Wk 6: 6v4 / 2v7 / 3v1 (5).

Wk 7: 3v6 / 5v1 / 4v2 (7).

The team in brackets sits out that week of fixtures (could have a rest or play friendlies vs. the other teams sitting out from other 7s); 1st at the split sits out the first games, 7th sits out the last games, the rest are a bit of a shuffle to stop there being too many consecutive homes or away matches per team.

It depends on how many games they'd be looking at cropping from the season in order to fit in a decent winter shut-down as to whether they'd consider a 32-game season, and it is a little complex, but it ticks a few boxes.

I'd be interested to see winter and summer breaks that allow the league season to be more closely aligned to the dates of UEFA competitions, with a winter break from the last weekend before xmas until mid-February, and a summer break from about June 10th to July 10th to accommodate the international tournaments, followed by league cup regions and this sort of league structure (with two legged play-off semi-finals and one-off finals)...

What if by chance the whole top 7 can mathematically still win the league at the split then how do you manage who sits out the last week?

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I don't see whats hindering anyone telling the wife to bugger off and go to the games, in all of that. Clearly, that becomes personal choice. Which i'd say ought to be considered before rash choices are made. A majority of football supporters (the thick and thin ones) base their entire lives around the football season......holidays, weddings, etc are arranged often with the season in mind....the market may be smaller, but most of whats left falls into this category. How do you address the fall in hardcore numbers when the tourists are bored rigid after two games???

Would the hardcores realy be so pissed off about a 5 -6 week break in the new year? Sure depressing time without football but you dont have to wait for so long . The season would be starting again in 5 weeks time from now. FWIW ive been pretty depressed at some winter games in our open airy ground. Times you just want full time to hurry up so you can go to the car for heat

[effeffsee_the2nd]

What if by chance the whole top 7 can mathematically still win the league at the split then how do you manage who sits out the last week?

Its a nice idea but id say keep it simple. The current split isnt that popular and its relative simple and fair.

[RabidAl]

Its a nice idea but id say keep it simple. The current split isn't that popular and it's relatively simple and fair.

Fair enough. I'm pretty agnostic on it, or on anything outwith having two separate, short seasons (one in the autumn, one in the spring; leagues of 10; non-leagues of 8 or 9) with play-offs for European places - which i'm absolutely for. I was surprised to hear Stewart Regan mention having two half-seasons the other day - sadly, he wasn't referring to this idea but was talking about having an extended winter break and summer football. The idea of 'summer football' is a bit of a misnomer anyway: since no-one (I hope) is suggesting that we play on during major international tournaments, all we're really talking about is playing on to the end of the first week in June and starting up again in the second week in July - hardly a major change to the way things are done at the moment.

I agree with this completely. There is a legend that there's secret army of fans who are just waiting for the right conditions to be met (£10 to get in, summer football, 16 team league, the "German Model") and suddenly we'll have grounds bursting at the seams.

There isn't and we won't.

A winning team will bring in extra fans for as long as they're a winning team and then the 'extra' will gradually drift away again.

High stakes games will bring in extra fans (league deciders, European deciders, relegation & promotion deciders, playoffs, big cup games) but only for those high stakes games.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that we'll have grounds bursting at the seams from these changes, just that they might get more folk interested.

From my own experience, once I had collected the away grounds in the league I didn't travel to any games unless they were local (Edinburgh, Fife, Dundee), meant a decent weekend away (Inverness) or had something like promotion/relegation/Europe(!) riding on them. For the rest, if I could see each opposition at home twice per season then I wouldn't often go to the away games, and certainly wouldn't go to the same away grounds twice a season.

After a couple of years of playing the same teams in the same league four times a season, I stopped going to the home matches as well because it was boring watching the same players/systems/tactics over and over, and because our players looked like they couldn't care less what the score was (they were probably as bored as I was).

What would get me going to games again? A greater variety of away grounds to visit, a greater variety of teams to play against at home, more riding on each game/more games with something riding on them, a team that looks like it gives a shit about not losing, and having to pay no more than about £15 at the gate. So I am one (maybe the only one!) who is waiting for the right conditions to be met before I go back to the football.