Antlion Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 The scenario would be that Westminster as it is now would go back to being what it was historically pre-1707 in being England's parliament. That would suit a lot of Tory and UKIP types, if it meant less danger of a Labour government in England, so disagree on it being a non-starter, because it takes EVEL to its logical end point from an English standpoint. Then you set up something similar to the proposed Belarus-Russia union state parliament above that (but going a bit further by being a UN and EU member, so there actually is a genuine reason to have one) with a relatively limited range of powers focussing on doing what needs to be done to retain a shared currency, foreign policy and armed forces, and deal with the failed statelet: htps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State It won't happen - it would result in the English FM either being or being in competition with the U.K. PM. The former would end the union, the latter would never be allowed by any PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Westminster is the English parliament. All reserved matters across UK will be passed if English mps want them. The Scots are second class in that respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 It won't happen - it would result in the English FM either being or being in competition with the U.K. PM. The former would end the union, the latter would never be allowed by any PM. My gut instinct is that the Union effectively ended when Cameron started warbling on about EVEL the morning after the referendum, because things entered Tam Dayell's motorway with no exits at that point. My post describes what would need to happen to try to form something that might endure, if the WLQ has to be addressed, which doesn't create two nationalisms feeding off each other in an ongoing cycle of grievance, not what I think will actually happen in the years ahead. Under the scenario I describe there would be no English or Scottish FM, only a British one, because foreign relations would be a reserved power for the new federal level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Westminster is the English parliament. All reserved matters across UK will be passed if English mps want them. The Scots are second class in that respect A simple function of the fact that England contains 84% of the UK population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 A simple function of the fact that England contains 84% of the UK population Exactly Mr B... That's why I want Scotland to look after its own affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 It's also why EVEL should be unnecessay at Westminster if people in England care about keeping the Union together. Most of the time they get the government they voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Exactly Mr B... That's why I want Scotland to look after its own affairs. I'm not disputing that as a reason for independence, given that we tend to treat Scotland as a nation in it's own right. However man for man Scottish MPs have a fair share of the power when it comes to issues that affect the entire UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm not disputing that as a reason for independence, given that we tend to treat Scotland as a nation in it's own right. However man for man Scottish MPs have a fair share of the power when it comes to issues that affect the entire UK In the past Mr B, not recently and certainly not with EVEL. Independence is the only option. England will vote tory for the forseable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 In the past Mr B, not recently and certainly not with EVEL. Independence is the only option. England will vote tory for the forseable Depends on the leaders really. I think only Boris Johnson can beat Labour in 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Depends on the leaders really. I think only Boris Johnson can beat Labour in 2020 Not sure corbyn is electable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Not sure corbyn is electable I don't think he is but then I didn't think he had a hope in hell's chance of winning the Labour leadership either. 4 1/2 years is one heck of a long time in politics and if he can ride a wave of support then maybe just maybe he can get the same momentum in England and Wales that the SNPNP have in Scotland. I don't think Osbourne or May are electable, the Tories either need to put BJ in charge or beg Cameron to stand one more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Wasn't the VAT status of Police Scotland connected to the fact it is a central government entity and not a local authority-based one? VAT recovery in England for policing activities is done through local authority areas not the Home Office. Whatever the fairness of that rule, it seems to me to be another example of why a reform of the police, cited as a money-saving project, wasn't properly thought through by the Scottish Government before implementation. PeatWorrier @PeatWorrier 3 mins3 minutes ago A wee reminder: the Tories fought the 2011 Holyrood election on a platform of creating a single police force. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Scottish-Parliament-2011.pdf… I wonder if the tories would be charging themselves VAT in the highly unlikely event they could form a Scottish government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 PeatWorrier @PeatWorrier 3 mins3 minutes ago A wee reminder: the Tories fought the 2011 Holyrood election on a platform of creating a single police force. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Scottish-Parliament-2011.pdf… I wonder if the tories would be charging themselves VAT in the highly unlikely event they could form a Scottish government? I have no idea. Not being a Tory, however, and having been a member of a party that went into the 2011 election against a single police force, having pointed out, among other things, that under current VAT rules it would be deemed to be a central government agency ineligible to reclaim VAT, the question is somewhat academic. The SNP went into this with their eyes wide open. They told us Police Scotland would save money. Instead it added a burden of failed VAT reclaim and started spunking tens of millions of pounds to consultancy firms like Accenture to build a new IT system that doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I'm sure people can accuse you of a few things but being a tory isn't one of them. I'm equally sure if there was the will an exemption could be made. Are exemptions impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Do the Police Service of Northern Ireland pay VAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Do the Police Service of Northern Ireland pay VAT? All police pay VAT. The question is whether they can recover it. PSNI can recover VAT. I suggest that you look into their governance structure. You will find it is not the same as Police Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 What's this VAT debate all about? Is it being suggested that police officers be exempt from VAT on personal purchases for example? Or is it to do with the purchase of uniforms and equipment that the police service use? VAT is of course a sales tax so I'm genuinely unsure on what kind of sales the police/police officers are proposing to be exempt from paying VAT on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 PSNI can recover VAT. I suggest that you look into their governance structure. You will find it is not the same as Police Scotland. I didn't know, that's why I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 What's this VAT debate all about? Is it being suggested that police officers be exempt from VAT on personal purchases for example? Or is it to do with the purchase of uniforms and equipment that the police service use? VAT is of course a sales tax so I'm genuinely unsure on what kind of sales the police/police officers are proposing to be exempt from paying VAT on. The police pay VAT just like any other body on equipment and services purchased. Because, however, unlike most enterprises, they are not "producing" or selling VATable goods, they cannot normally "reclaim" that VAT in the way a trader could. There is a specific rule that permits local authority bodies to reclaim VAT on goods and services purchased, but it does not apply to central government departments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 EVEL is another nail in the Unionist coffin. Bring it on. Cameron obviously never studied Shakespeare at his posh school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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