EVEL

[AUFC90]

I would agree with that assessment, I think he fired off the gun too early. Something which may cost them for a while. One perhaps two parliaments down south is when I would imagine the time for another vote will come and be long enough since the last vote to not seem constant.

I couldn't take to their 'it will be fine' type comments regarding things like Europe. Hopefully before they try again they get some definite answers where it matters.

How do you propose getting definite answers with regards to the EU ? Mystic Meg, Crystal ball ?. You'll vote no regardless so it doesn't matter to you.

[AUFC90]

By entering into discussions.

As for your last sentence that's just ridiculous, I will vote for what I think is best at the time.

Discussions with whom ? The EU will only discuss these things with a member state and only after a request from said member. Perhaps you could try again ? Demanding certainties from situations that are inherently uncertain is just daft and a comfort blanket for the shitebags amongst the no vote.

You'll vote no regardless.

[Bishop Briggs]

Wouldn't Scotland have to be independent before its people can make sovereign decisions about its membership of the EU and any future currency?

Otherwise, it's all a bit like saying, "I don't like the colour the SNP want for a putative Scotland's National Olympic Team if we go independent, therefore I'm not going to support independence". The country actually has to vote for independence before there's any point debating what direction various things will go in as an independent state.

For example, is ROI in the same position constitutionally, politically, in terms of currency, and in terms of membership of international institutions as it was when it decided to be independent?

That's not what the White Paper said.

"The Scottish Government has proposed an 18-month period between the referendum and independence, which we believe is realistic for the terms of Scotland’s independent membership of the EU to be agreed and all the necessary processes completed. It also provides sufficient time for the Scottish Government to undertake the necessary legal and institutional preparations for independent EU membership."

The White Paper also proposed a currency union.

[AUFC90]

That's not what the White Paper said.

"The Scottish Government has proposed an 18-month period between the referendum and independence, which we believe is realistic for the terms of Scotland’s independent membership of the EU to be agreed and all the necessary processes completed. It also provides sufficient time for the Scottish Government to undertake the necessary legal and institutional preparations for independent EU membership."

The White Paper also proposed a currency union.

They proposed a currency union. Unfortunately the UK gov took the huff and wouldn't discuss it. Shame.

[Bishop Briggs]

How do you propose getting definite answers with regards to the EU ? Mystic Meg, Crystal ball ?. You'll vote no regardless so it doesn't matter to you.

As I've posted on other threads previously, the EU gave definitive answers that contradicted the White Paper.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

That letter from the Vice-Commissioner was a response to a letter from the SNP Convener who wanted clarification on the White Paper's proposals.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/20140310_Convener_to_Vivianne_Reding_European_Commission.pdf

The SNP just ignored the Commission's definitive answer.

[Bishop Briggs]

They proposed a currency union. Unfortunately the UK gov took the huff and wouldn't discuss it. Shame.

A currency union would have required a fiscal agreement with rUK on tax and spending. It would also given control on monetary policy to the Bank of England. Such an union and agreement is incompatible with true independence.

[AUFC90]

Then who did Alex speak to, he told us he had discussions.

We all know unofficial discussions take place. If you claim we can't discuss anything with anyone until after the event you are an idiot.

As for your last sentence that sums up how much of an arse you are. So run along.

How do you know unofficial discussions took place ? And who with ?

The heads of state of each EU member ? A random MEPs secretary ?

There weren't any discussions with the people who would be in the room like Merkel et al. One person who would be in the room, who goes by the name of Cameron, said he would support Scotland gaining entry. Another one who was the Danish PM at the time said we would get in no bother.

Does the truth hurt son. You'll never vote yes, especially if you're looking for cast iron certainties like the craven shitebag you are.

[AUFC90]

As I've posted on other threads previously, the EU gave definitive answers that contradicted the White Paper.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

That letter from the Vice-Commissioner was a response to a letter from the SNP Convener who wanted clarification on the White Paper's proposals.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/20140310_Convener_to_Vivianne_Reding_European_Commission.pdf

The SNP just ignored the Commission's definitive answer.

And I can quote plenty of other European politicians that said Scotland would get in no bother. The heads of state if each country would have decided. Not a commissioner or an MEP.

Anyway, you're anti EU, so by your very dense logic, you should have voted yes.

[Bishop Briggs]

How do you know unofficial discussions took place ? And who with ?

The heads of state of each EU member ? A random MEPs secretary ?

There weren't any discussions with the people who would be in the room like Merkel et al. One person who would be in the room, who goes by the name of Cameron, said he would support Scotland gaining entry. Another one who was the Danish PM at the time said we would get in no bother.

Does the truth hurt son. You'll never vote yes, especially if you're looking for cast iron certainties like the craven shitebag you are.

Do you have a link for that? It's news for me.

Do you honestly think that the Spanish would for Scottish entry? It would set a precedent Catalonia that also wants "independence inside the EU".

[Bishop Briggs]

And I can quote plenty of other European politicians that said Scotland would get in no bother. The heads of state if each country would have decided. Not a commissioner or an MEP.

Anyway, you're anti EU, so by your very dense logic, you should have voted yes.

All 28 Heads of State, including Spain, would have to approve Scotland's entry.

On the second point, read post number 96 above.

[AUFC90]

Do you have a link for that? It's news for me.

Do you honestly think that the Spanish would for Scottish entry? It would set a precedent Catalonia that also wants "independence inside the EU".

http://news.stv.tv/politics/265247-david-cameron-would-support-an-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/

David Cameron would "absolutely" support an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, he told STV Political Editor Bernard Ponsonby.

Speaking in Aberdeen, the Prime Minister said such a move "would not be his choice" but he would submit to the will of the Scottish people in the event of a Yes vote in September.

And all the rest would submit to the will of the Scottish people because that's democracy and the EU is one the biggest champions of it.

Did you ever watch the excruciating interview with the Spanish foreign minister clarifying how Scotland and Catalonia are totally different. His words were if the UK has agreed to a referendum and there's a yes vote then who are we to veto it.

I have to laugh at a poster who's biggest reason for voting no was the SNP being pro Europe all the while arguing for certainties that we would get in

[AUFC90]

A currency union would have required a fiscal agreement with rUK on tax and spending. It would also given control on monetary policy to the Bank of England. Such an union and agreement is incompatible with true independence.

Standard catchphrase we've heard all to often. France is independent, Holland is independent. Anyone arguing otherwise is an absolute numpty. The BOE already controls monetary policy, we wanted full control of fiscal policy unlike now where we are lucky to control 20%.

A currency would only ever have been temporary to calm the markets during the transition but you know this anyway.

[AUFC90]

All 28 Heads of State, including Spain, would have to approve Scotland's entry.

On the second point, read post number 96 above.

And they would have. Or maybe Hungary would have vetoed us

Pathetic.

[Bishop Briggs]

And they would have. Or maybe Hungary would have vetoed us

Pathetic.

Really? Spain's "Project Fear" against Catalonian independence-

"Spain’s central bank said secession would risk exclusion from the eurozone, while the country’s main banks – including two based in the region – cautioned that independence could undermine financial stability just as the country was beginning to shake off the lingering effects of the economic crisis.

"The Spanish government argued that if Catalans broke off from Spain it would cost them their Spanish nationality, while the president of the Spanish professional football league said Barcelona would be left out of La Liga.

“Catalans aren’t being told the real consequences of independence,” the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, told Onda Cero radio station on Tuesday. “It would leave the EU. What would happen with pensions? There are many more pensioners than contributors. What would happen with financial institutions, with bank deposits, to the currency?”

Does that sound familiar to you?

And you honestly think that Spain would support an independent Scotland joining the EU?

[Bishop Briggs]

http://news.stv.tv/politics/265247-david-cameron-would-support-an-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/

David Cameron would "absolutely" support an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, he told STV Political Editor Bernard Ponsonby.

Speaking in Aberdeen, the Prime Minister said such a move "would not be his choice" but he would submit to the will of the Scottish people in the event of a Yes vote in September.

And all the rest would submit to the will of the Scottish people because that's democracy and the EU is one the biggest champions of it.

Did you ever watch the excruciating interview with the Spanish foreign minister clarifying how Scotland and Catalonia are totally different. His words were if the UK has agreed to a referendum and there's a yes vote then who are we to veto it.

I have to laugh at a poster who's biggest reason for voting no was the SNP being pro Europe all the while arguing for certainties that we would get in

That's news to me!

[Bishop Briggs]

http://news.stv.tv/politics/265247-david-cameron-would-support-an-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/

David Cameron would "absolutely" support an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, he told STV Political Editor Bernard Ponsonby.

Speaking in Aberdeen, the Prime Minister said such a move "would not be his choice" but he would submit to the will of the Scottish people in the event of a Yes vote in September.

And all the rest would submit to the will of the Scottish people because that's democracy and the EU is one the biggest champions of it.

Did you ever watch the excruciating interview with the Spanish foreign minister clarifying how Scotland and Catalonia are totally different. His words were if the UK has agreed to a referendum and there's a yes vote then who are we to veto it.

I have to laugh at a poster who's biggest reason for voting no was the SNP being pro Europe all the while arguing for certainties that we would get in

"Mr Cameron added: "But it's not my choice about how EU applications work. It's a matter for the EU and the EU have said very clearly that Scotland would have to join the queue of other countries in order to rejoin."

The White Paper claimed that iScotland would join the EU on independence day, within 18 months of the referendum. The SNP also claimed up to referendum that the Cameron had not asked the EU for a clear statement on Scottish independence. That article debunks that myth. Many thanks for posting it.

[Michael W]

Define England only. That's the issue, the sheer number of things that will effect Barnett consequentials and therefore the Scottish budget which Scottish representatives will no longer have a say in. Though in truth it's only a more graphic representation of an already existing situation: Scottish MPs can and will be outvoted all the time. Scotland gets what England wants.

What is and isn't an English only matter is a problem, I agree with that. Airport expansion (if it ever gets beyond the endless bickering) is a very good example of that.

Scottish MPs (and Welsh and NI MPs) still have the opportunity to vote on it at the final stage, though. That the bill may well pass anyway isn't really down to much other than a majority government. I don't really think their chances of voting a bill down has really decreased - they still need Tories voting against the party.

[doulikefish]

Basically unelected Lady Mone has now got more power than an elected scottish mp

[Antlion]

"Mr Cameron added: "But it's not my choice about how EU applications work. It's a matter for the EU and the EU have said very clearly that Scotland would have to join the queue of other countries in order to rejoin."

The White Paper claimed that iScotland would join the EU on independence day, within 18 months of the referendum. The SNP also claimed up to referendum that the Cameron had not asked the EU for a clear statement on Scottish independence. That article debunks that myth. Many thanks for posting it.

The idea that Scotland would have to wait years for EU membership, whilst all Spanish vessels departed Scottish waters and all Spanish students and workers here due to EU free movement would be be ejected just so that Spain could try and stifle the democratic rights of some of its people is nonsense. They had a ready-built "get out" in their claims that the constitution of the U.K. is different from that of Spain, and the legal independence of Scotland would not be analogous to the independence of Catalonia.

Of course, there are two further problems with the EU debate. Firstly, if Scotland was told it was not allowed to maintain its citizens EU membership under an existing article for no other reason than Spain's internal politics, I have no doubt Brussels would be roundly told to f**k off, and the EU would lose its oil producing state. Secondly, our membership of the EU is currently under threat, even within the union; now becoming a member state on our own carries less risk than being a member by virtue of being a region of an increasingly Eurosceptic nation.

[Bishop Briggs]

The idea that Scotland would have to wait years for EU membership, whilst all Spanish vessels departed Scottish waters and all Spanish students and workers here due to EU free movement would be be ejected just so that Spain could try and stifle the democratic rights of some of its people is nonsense. They had a ready-built "get out" in their claims that the constitution of the U.K. is different from that of Spain, and the legal independence of Scotland would not be analogous to the independence of Catalonia.

Of course, there are two further problems with the EU debate. Firstly, if Scotland was told it was not allowed to maintain its citizens EU membership under an existing article for no other reason than Spain's internal politics, I have no doubt Brussels would be roundly told to f**k off, and the EU would lose its oil producing state. Secondly, our membership of the EU is currently under threat, even within the union; now becoming a member state on our own carries less risk than being a member by virtue of being a region of an increasingly Eurosceptic nation.

You are obviously, unlike me, pro-EU. The main barrier to EU membership could be financial, especially the currency issue. The North Sea revenues are well below the SNP's forecasts which would significantly affect Scotland's financial contribution to the EU budget.

A truly independent Scotland would be free negotiate a trade agreement with Brussels on its own terms. Unlike now, it could control its own waters and fishing rights. The Common Fisheries Policy has been a disaster for fishing stocks, especially cod and haddock.

An independent Scotland would also have control of its own borders. It would therefore be free to give citizens of all countries, including EU Members, rights of residency or Scottish citizenship. Norway and Switzerland have chosen to have freedom of movement with the EU.