The Terrible Journalism & Tom English Thread

[RandomGuy.]

8 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Come on. Rough estimate.

I watch old games all the fucking time, so you're probably incorrect, as well. Nineties fitba is my hobby.

Over 5 and under 10, i got a bit obsessed after trying to watch Premiership Years in order.

Cantona was always important to Man U and clearly one of the leagues best for a period, but he never looked like somebody who could do that at the highest European/World level within a squad where things weren't built around him and with players who wanted the ball as much. He saw the ball in literally every Man U attack and every Man U attack was built around him seeing the ball.

Again, he easily goes down as an EPL great but hes definitely over rated in terms of people claiming he was one of the best in the world, and i think thats entirely down to folk getting so much exposure to the EPL and little of European football in the early 90s. Id say Dennis Bergkamp was better than Cantona but simply got overshadowed by Henry eventually so nostalgia wise loses out to Cantona, who benefits from being the main man.

Edited August 22, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Over 5 and under 10, i got a bit obsessed after trying to watch Premiership Years in order.

Cantona was always important to Man U and clearly one of the leagues best for a period, but he never looked like somebody who could do that at the highest European/World level within a squad where things weren't built around him and with players who wanted the ball as much. He saw the ball in literally every Man U attack and every Man U attack was built around him seeing the ball.

Again, he easily goes down as an EPL great but hes definitely over rated in terms of people claiming he was one of the best in the world, and i think thats entirely down to folk getting so much exposure to the EPL and little of European football in the early 90s. Id say Dennis Bergkamp was better than Cantona but simply got overshadowed by Henry eventually. 

RG has seen Cantona play 6 times and reckons everyone else is wrong.

Other than your Bergkamp point, which is a reasonable discussion, the rest of this post is just absolute mince. Youngsters of the social media generation are happy to spout such complete shite with alarming confidence in their own opinions.

You're absolutely slavering.

[Molotov]

I was extremely fortunate to watch top flight English football for over 20 years in person from the mid 80s. 

The most insane time for footballing talent was when United and Arsenal were going toe to toe near the end of the century when most teams had some absolute ballers on display.
 

Even teams like Sheffield Wednesday had guys like Carbone and Di Canio. 

The infamous 1999 FA Cup semi at Villa Park line ups.

 

Scholes, Giggs and Yorke were subs for United.  

There have been better players than Cantona but what he changed at United was the mindset. 

The United teams of recent years are frankly a joke compared to the 90s. 

Cantona certainly had a massive influence on that club. Far bigger than Bryan Robson imho.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said:

RG has seen Cantona play 6 times and reckons everyone else is wrong.

Where have i said anyones wrong?

A discussion involves two people giving their opinions on things, and generally its contrasting opinions. Im simply trying to give my thoughts on Cantona, much like you are. If im wrong then im wrong, if anything this whole thing will send me down the delightful rabbit hole of watching old matches again.

Not a clue why literally every response from you has to have some form of dig in it tbh.

[VincentGuerin]

35 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

If he'd played for Lazio instead of Man U then literally everyone on this thread saying he wasnt over rated wouldn't have that opinion. Its purely and simply nostalgia because you remember the EPL hype train showing you his best bits every week.

 

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Where have i said anyones wrong?

 

See above.

Take it as a dig if you like, or take it as constructive criticism and useful correction.

You've wired in with a controversial opinion, admitted you have more or less nothing to base it on, and then told people who know better thay they've been kidded by hype. I'm not blaming you; this is the world you operate in, I imagine. Everyone's opinion is valid, even when based on f**k all. I'm just pointing it out for you. Take it as a chance to learn, grow, live, laugh, love.

Yoof of today, innit.

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

 

See above.

Am I wrong with that though?

Theres definitely people here who'll rate Cantona higher than George Weah simply because they had more exposure to them.

You still see it today was EPL players rated so much higher than foreign based players due to the exposure we get to the EPL.

[Richey Edwards]

14 minutes ago, Molotov said:

I was extremely fortunate to watch top flight English football for over 20 years in person from the mid 80s. 

The most insane time for footballing talent was when United and Arsenal were going toe to toe near the end of the century when most teams had some absolute ballers on display.
 

Even teams like Sheffield Wednesday had guys like Carbone and Di Canio. 

The infamous 1999 FA Cup semi at Villa Park line ups.

 

Scholes, Giggs and Yorke were subs for United.  

There have been better players than Cantona but what he changed at United was the mindset. 

The United teams of recent years are frankly a joke compared to the 90s. 

Cantona certainly had a massive influence on that club. Far bigger than Bryan Robson imho.

I misread the "in person" as "in prison" at first glance.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Richey Edwards

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Am I wrong with that though?

Theres definitely people here who'll rate Cantona higher than George Weah simply because they had more exposure to them.

You still see it today was EPL players rated so much higher than foreign based players due to the exposure we get to the EPL.

Yes. You're completely and comprehensively wrong.

[VincentGuerin]

5 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

I misread the "in person" and "in prison" at first glance.

Holiday camps, imo.

[strichener]

6 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Yes. You're completely and comprehensively wrong.

Posted without even a hint of self-awareness.

[Desp]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

It probably helps that i didnt, so i dont have nostalgia blinding me.

'When judging how good a player was, it probably helps that I didn't see him play.'

Sensational

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, strichener said:

Posted without even a hint of self-awareness.

If the question is 'Is Eric Cantona's reputation based on EPL hype?', then the answer is no.

No self-awareness required on that one.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Desp said:

'When judging how good a player was, it probably helps that I didn't see him play.'

Sensational

It's a belter.

I'm bowing out now. He's not a bad lad, just misguided.

[Desp]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Theres definitely people here who'll rate Cantona higher than George Weah simply because they had more exposure to them.

 

Hmmm.  In the early/mid 90s, when your examples of Cantona & Weah were at their peak, the average British based fan had just as much exposure to Serie A as you did to the EPL.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Desp said:

Hmmm.  In the early/mid 90s, when your examples of Cantona & Weah were at their peak, the average British based fan had just as much exposure to Serie A as you did to the EPL.

More in terms of live games, for the average household.

[strichener]

7 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

If the question is 'Is Eric Cantona's reputation based on EPL hype?', then the answer is no.

No self-awareness required on that one.

Eric Cantona's reputation was based on his arrogance and off-field idiosyncrasies.  If you want to argue that Man Utd were elevated by Cantona then it would be on the way he impressed his character on his team mates, not on his outstanding football abilities.  Anyone arguing that he was a generation football talent should be booking a visit with a neurosurgeon ASAP. 

[VincentGuerin]

5 minutes ago, strichener said:

Eric Cantona's reputation was based on his arrogance and off-field idiosyncrasies.  If you want to argue that Man Utd were elevated by Cantona then it would be on the way he impressed his character on his team mates, not on his outstanding football abilities.  Anyone arguing that he was a generation football talent should be booking a visit with a neurosurgeon ASAP. 

Fucking hell. Some frankly alarming takes on this site today.

[Desp]

3 minutes ago, strichener said:

Eric Cantona's reputation was based on his arrogance and off-field idiosyncrasies.  If you want to argue that Man Utd were elevated by Cantona then it would be on the way he impressed his character on his team mates, not on his outstanding football abilities.  Anyone arguing that he was a generation football talent should be booking a visit with a neurosurgeon ASAP. 

Alex Ferguson, of course, famously liked to stick guys up front for Man Utd for five years just because they were a bit of a lad, despite being not very good at football.

I don't believe anyone is arguing Cantona was the best player in history, nor even of his generation.  However, the idea he was 'overrated' is nonsense, considering he's never included in discussions when people talk about these kind of things.  For Cantona, it was both the way he impressed his character on his team mates and his outstanding football abilities.  Manchester Utd dominated English Football for the best part of 15 years.  There is plenty of evidence to support that the period began after they signed Eric Cantona.

[Saint Paddy]

Cantona was a joy to watch at his imperious best.

Was he the best player on the planet at the time? No

Was he over rated?

No

End.

[Urban Spaceman]

2 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

No. Serie A was still the most glamorous league at the time, and Cantona was linked with it all the time. This is not tenuous, it is a rebuttal of RG's (ludicrous) claim that Cantona was not seen as one of the best attacking players of his time. He was often linked with moves to the big clubs in the best league.

In Cantona's time United were nowhere near top dog in Europe. They got knocked out the Champions League in the qualifiers and group stage by the likes of Galatasaray and Gothenberg, and were pumped out the UEFA Cup by Rotor Volgograd in the first round. Torpedo Moscow punted them out the CWC in the first round, too. They were miles off it.

The only good run they had in Europe in his whole time there was his last season when they reached the semis. Italian clubs reached the CL final seven years running at that time (while England provided 0) and provided 8 UEFA Cup finalists in 8 seasons (England 0).

Again, I'd venture that if you think the only step up available from Man Utd in the 90s was Bayern, Barca, or Real, then you're either quite young or have just forgotten what football was in the 90s. Serie A was the undisputed daddy. It's not even close.

And being 'well-run' didn't stop Barca hiring Romario, Laudrup, Ronaldo, or Stoichkov, all of whom ran rings around the clubs that you reckon wouldn't stand for it. And, as for disruptive influences at Bayern, where do we fucking start?

I wasn't disputing how great he was I was disputing how much of an influence he had on the club and how much other clubs wanted him. I know from conversations with people in the club at the time he was a bit of a quote / unquote "c**t" to most players and staff, Fergie tolerated him despite the narrative that followed in the years later and the legend that has formed now.