Pro Youth

[parsforlife]

Is it? shows you how much attention I pay to it, in which case I dont see an issue.

Yes, the u20s league when first brought in replacing the u19s and reserve leagues IIRC allowed 2 any age 1 under 23 and the keeper could be any age.

This has been simplified and slightly increased to 5 players over 20, regardless of position.

[HTG]

A few of us have had this discussion on and off at linlithgow over the years - particularly when we've watched friendlies against senior sides' under 20s.

One of my mates who has been involved in the game coming through the youth ranks himself hit the nail on the head for me.

Clubs like Dundee Utd - could be anyone - may identify a player or maybe even two in a group of 20 who look like they'll make the grade.

The rest are ballast. They're needed so that games can be organised and the boys with potential can play and develop. As a result, a lot of youngsters get to 20 before they are told to find their proper level - once their club no longer needs them. A number of them must sense that they're not really up to it but I've never met any youngster who would volunteer to walk away.

It's a shame but that's how it is I guess. We've got lads in on loan from Raith Rovers and Peterhead as well as one released by Aberdeen last season. I can't help thinking they'd have been better learning with older guys at our level and maybe playing some hard edged football - not that there is much of that left these days.

[Burnie_man]

Clubs like Dundee Utd - could be anyone - may identify a player or maybe even two in a group of 20 who look like they'll make the grade.

The rest are ballast. They're needed so that games can be organised and the boys with potential can play and develop. As a result, a lot of youngsters get to 20 before they are told to find their proper level - once their club no longer needs them. A number of them must sense that they're not really up to it but I've never met any youngster who would volunteer to walk away.

It's a shame but that's how it is I guess. We've got lads in on loan from Raith Rovers and Peterhead as well as one released by Aberdeen last season. I can't help thinking they'd have been better learning with older guys at our level and maybe playing some hard edged football - not that there is much of that left these days.

Similar to what I was told as I said above.

Maybe that's why kids shouldn't go to Pro-Youth until at least 16/17, then the Seniors can fill their set-ups with more players who might make it, reducing wastage? I dunno.

[parsforlife]

Similar to what I was told as I said above.

Maybe that's why kids shouldn't go to Pro-Youth until at least 16/17, then the Seniors can fill their set-ups with more players who might make it, reducing wastage? I dunno.

This is certainly the idea behind regional academics, tho they are still pro-youth.

That combined with a small budget means our u20s squad only has 8 players.

[leftrightback]

How can a pro-youth player develop playing against "ballast" or players who have outlived their usefulness? Quotes coming from people who have been involved in pro-youth? This sums it up for me, try and find a diamond then see if we can make money out of him, while taking the SFA payout.

HTG,your bit about loan players backs my theory about the juniors and pro youth, there seems to be a thought amongst junior teams that a pro-youth "ballast. or usefulness past" player should be taken on loan as he must be better than someone who has been playing in the tough at times, boys v men amateur leagues, where I have seen some good players who wouldn't go pro-youth because they wanted to play every week.

[LongTimeLurker]

How can a pro-youth player develop playing against "ballast" or players who have outlived their usefulness?

Used to go to premier division reserve games sometimes back in the 80s and the guys that eventually made it stood out a mile, so can believe the ballast thing. Assuming clubs know what they are doing on this maybe at a certain point in a player's development you want them to be the star player playing the dominant role that you project them to be filling in the first team a couple of seasons down the line?

[holsten]

Its not called ballast its called a shirtfiller in pro youth

Teams like Tower hearts or Rutherglen Glencairn in the WOS 21s would give most pro youth u20s a game from what I have seen this year .....but i would love to know if these boys are cast offs from pro youth or bc players

[Fife Journeyman]

Great topic. Ive said for a whilst at Junior Level guys who are early 30s and older are the only ones you can rely on too have commitment and attitude required. Players under 30 with a few exceptions more interested in there hair/boots/wage or where they are going on a Saturday night.Junior football will never be the same as it was which is a pity. In 5 years there wont be Junior football.The ambitious clubs will join the pyramid and the rest will be Amateur.

Society/Mobiles/Work Patterns has killed non league football and it will get worse before better.

[HTG]

Society/Mobiles/Work Patterns has killed non league football and it will get worse before better.

Worse than dead - that's some effort!

[rtg1971]

Great topic. Ive said for a whilst at Junior Level guys who are early 30s and older are the only ones you can rely on too have commitment and attitude required. Players under 30 with a few exceptions more interested in there hair/boots/wage or where they are going on a Saturday night.Junior football will never be the same as it was which is a pity. In 5 years there wont be Junior football.The ambitious clubs will join the pyramid and the rest will be Amateur.

Society/Mobiles/Work Patterns has killed non league football and it will get worse before better.

ooooft - you are clearly a glass is half empty kind a guy eh?

[Burnie_man]

Great topic. Ive said for a whilst at Junior Level guys who are early 30s and older are the only ones you can rely on too have commitment and attitude required. Players under 30 with a few exceptions more interested in there hair/boots/wage or where they are going on a Saturday night.Junior football will never be the same as it was which is a pity. In 5 years there wont be Junior football.The ambitious clubs will join the pyramid and the rest will be Amateur.

Society/Mobiles/Work Patterns has killed non league football and it will get worse before better.

Anyone hear the Hovis music?

[c'mon kilsyth]

I read an interesting article re - pro youth set up in England in last month's 442 magazine where a lot of teams were looking at either reviewing them or scaling them back. The article stated that to have an elite pro youth set up costs £2.4million pounds, and the some clubs have as many youth coaches/staff than they do for the first team and this was causing a financial burden for them compared to the players they were producing. I also recently read a book re football scouting in both youth and senior levels of the game, and it quoted a figure of about 85% of players who enter a pro youth programme are no longer playing football by the time they are 16/17.

Now back to the reality of football in Scotland, I am involved with a local boys club team at 2006 level, we have 20 odd players and all come from the local area, naturally some are better than others, but they all play and get a chance to develop. Over the past couple of months I have had contact from 2 SPFL clubs asking when we are playing at home so they can send some-one out to watch, I understand they do this sweep across the development leagues, rather than having an eye on any particular players. As a coach, I would not like to stand in the way of any young player who could be given a chance to develop further, but time and time again local boys clubs teams are weakened when their best players are picked up to pro youth.

I would agree that 7/8/9 years olds are too young to be regarded as pro youth standard, as in my own experience I have seen players both in my team and opponents both improve, and go backwards at this age. I think they should be at least playing 11 a side before moving on, with the proviso that they can still play for their local team if not involved with the pro youth club on any given week.

With regards coaching badges/player pathway, I think they give an country wide standard of what is expected, and the coaching courses I have been on have been both challenging and educational, yes, the level of participation is up to the individual to a large degree, but I don't think many people would give up their free time to attend, just for the sake of getting a badge and not using it properly.

To quote my son recently "I hope I can be a footballer when I am older, and get the chance to play for Kilsyth Rangers", I cannot agree with the doom and gloom of predictions that there will be no junior football in 5 years, yes, it way well be different and I believe community clubs will have a larger role to play but while there is no magic wand to cure all ills, there are enough people and programmes available for a sustainable future, we just need to be sure where we can all fit into it.

[rtg1971]

I read an interesting article re - pro youth set up in England in last month's 442 magazine where a lot of teams were looking at either reviewing them or scaling them back. The article stated that to have an elite pro youth set up costs £2.4million pounds, and the some clubs have as many youth coaches/staff than they do for the first team and this was causing a financial burden for them compared to the players they were producing. I also recently read a book re football scouting in both youth and senior levels of the game, and it quoted a figure of about 85% of players who enter a pro youth programme are no longer playing football by the time they are 16/17.

Now back to the reality of football in Scotland, I am involved with a local boys club team at 2006 level, we have 20 odd players and all come from the local area, naturally some are better than others, but they all play and get a chance to develop. Over the past couple of months I have had contact from 2 SPFL clubs asking when we are playing at home so they can send some-one out to watch, I understand they do this sweep across the development leagues, rather than having an eye on any particular players. As a coach, I would not like to stand in the way of any young player who could be given a chance to develop further, but time and time again local boys clubs teams are weakened when their best players are picked up to pro youth.

I would agree that 7/8/9 years olds are too young to be regarded as pro youth standard, as in my own experience I have seen players both in my team and opponents both improve, and go backwards at this age. I think they should be at least playing 11 a side before moving on, with the proviso that they can still play for their local team if not involved with the pro youth club on any given week.

With regards coaching badges/player pathway, I think they give an country wide standard of what is expected, and the coaching courses I have been on have been both challenging and educational, yes, the level of participation is up to the individual to a large degree, but I don't think many people would give up their free time to attend, just for the sake of getting a badge and not using it properly.

To quote my son recently "I hope I can be a footballer when I am older, and get the chance to play for Kilsyth Rangers", I cannot agree with the doom and gloom of predictions that there will be no junior football in 5 years, yes, it way well be different and I believe community clubs will have a larger role to play but while there is no magic wand to cure all ills, there are enough people and programmes available for a sustainable future, we just need to be sure where we can all fit into it.

nice post

[parsforlife]

Now back to the reality of football in Scotland, I am involved with a local boys club team at 2006 level, we have 20 odd players and all come from the local area, naturally some are better than others, but they all play and get a chance to develop. Over the past couple of months I have had contact from 2 SPFL clubs asking when we are playing at home so they can send some-one out to watch, I understand they do this sweep across the development leagues, rather than having an eye on any particular players. As a coach, I would not like to stand in the way of any young player who could be given a chance to develop further, but time and time again local boys clubs teams are weakened when their best players are picked up to pro youth.

.

The last line is something bitter self-congragatory coaches tend to come out with. In what way is the strength of a boys club team important, and why should we care?

Anyone who gets annoyed at pro-youth taking their better players is someone who needs to question their motivation and methods.

[Sergeant Wilson]

The last line is something bitter self-congragatory coaches tend to come out with. In what way is the strength of a boys club team important, and why should we care?

Anyone who gets annoyed at pro-youth taking their better players is someone who needs to question their motivation and methods.

By the same token. If Motherwell, or any other club, pick up a kid from Kilsyth, what is it doing for the community they claim to represent?

[leftrightback]

The last line is something bitter self-congragatory coaches tend to come out with. In what way is the strength of a boys club team important, and why should we care?

Anyone who gets annoyed at pro-youth taking their better players is someone who needs to question their motivation and methods.

Don't recall any coach ever complaining about any boys progress, in our own boys team we had eight boys go pro-youth and were delighted to that the scouts are out there, but it can work against the boys as well, the majority of our team all played for the same school team that went on to win the Scottish cup, two who were pro youth at the time were only allowed to play in the chance of a lifetime at Hampden after much pleading by the school coach to their pro teams who didn't want them to play!

Incidentally, none of them made it pro but are all playing junior football.

[c'mon kilsyth]

The last line is something bitter self-congragatory coaches tend to come out with. In what way is the strength of a boys club team important, and why should we care?

Anyone who gets annoyed at pro-youth taking their better players is someone who needs to question their motivation and methods.

I am on no way a bitter self congratulatory coach, but have been called worse, so to answer your question the strength of a boys club team is important to the rest of the boys who are playing week in week out, and the parents who are paying for their boys to play.

Everyone want to compete at the highest level they can, both as an individual and a team, and if the rug is pulled from you then it can take time to re-build with results and performances suffering in the meantime.

I would also say that if pro youth come in for a boys club player, the coaches methods must be working, so rather than questioning these methods, they should be congratulated on developing the players in the first place, and I say this as a coach of a team that has never had a player move to pro youth as yet.

[parsforlife]

I am on no way a bitter self congratulatory coach, but have been called worse, so to answer your question the strength of a boys club team is important to the rest of the boys who are playing week in week out, and the parents who are paying for their boys to play.

Important to the parents? 'I want my laddie to play in a good team so i feel better about myself ' types

As for the other boys surely seeing teammates move up can be a help to push on themselves.

Guys are going to have set-backs and need to be able to deal with that, we definitely shouldn't be preventing set backs by not pushing them.

I think its possible we are losing too many players and we maybe should look at the relationship between boys clubs and pro-youth, perhaps making sure contact is made with their previous boys club before releasing players? Regardless i doubt we are losing too many top players here, it's unlikely talented players will not remain in pro-youth even if one club decides against them.

[leftrightback]

I think its possible we are losing too many players and we maybe should look at the relationship between boys clubs and pro-youth, perhaps making sure contact is made with their previous boys club before releasing players? Regardless i doubt we are losing too many top players here, it's unlikely talented players will not remain in pro-youth even if one club decides against them.

Have you witnessed the pro-youth setup? at the end of the season or when a new coach comes in a lot of boys are discarded, many of them move from 1 club to another, some have been at many clubs only to be told "sorry".

We are losing good talent, unfortunately after being churned through the pro-youth setup some give up football altogether.

[ayrbluebrazil]

I've read a lot of the above comments and tend to disagree! Pro youth is well run there are players in most Scottish senior clubs who have progressed through the pro youth set up(fact) there are also a lot of players currently playing junior who have came through the set up but have for one reason or another not made it at a pro club. I spent 4 years in the youth academy at Cowdenbeath and 3 years in at Ayr before moving into juniors. The coaches I have met and worked with in pro youth are very rarely paid( other than expenses). In my case it was horses for courses I had a romantic notion I could take on a junior role and play the way the pro youth teams set themselves up unfortunately not the case!! Back to pro youth though it's producing loads of talent look at most of the hearts team? They have come through their set up! Look at Dundee Utd;Aberdeeen; Hibs; Motherwell; Hamilton list is endless guys? Let's look at the players who have made it? Forrest bros( James @ Celtic ; Alan @ Ayr UTD) Kieran tierney Andy Halliday; Scott Brown for gods sake all came through pro youth set ups. I don't think it's perfect and I don't think it ever will be but it is working. Remember youth coaches or development coaches are only there to get the players to reach their potential if that is senior level or junior level or even amateur level then so be it. I say calm down and make improvements rather than scrap it?