League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Wilky1878]

So you're left scraping around for quality to fill the North Division, whilst big clubs in the South can't get a look in due to sheer numbers. That's where you need to appreciate that North/South is daft and does not work.

Strictly that's not entirely true though. Clubs like Brora, Cove, formartine and Turriff already play in the Highland league and there are teams such as Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose that could realistically face relegation in the near future as they are in league two. As I said this will probably even itself out over some years aswell.

[Burnie_man]

Strictly that's not entirely true though. Clubs like Brora, Cove, formartine and Turriff already play in the Highland league and there are teams such as Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose that could realistically face relegation in the near future as they are in league two. As I said this will probably even itself out over some years aswell.

There are 15 clubs in the current LL, 59 clubs in the East Juniors, and 64 in the West Juniors, plus 15 in the EoSFL and 14 in the SoSFL, that's 167 clubs.

In the HFL there are 18 clubs, and 35 in the North Juniors, lets be generous and add in the North Caledonian League which musters another 6 I think, that's 59 clubs.

That's 167 v 59 and a blind man can tell you that a North/South split is not the way to do it.

[Wilky1878]

There are 15 clubs in the current LL, 59 clubs in the East Juniors, and 64 in the West Juniors, plus 15 in the EoSFL and 14 in the SoSFL, that's 167 clubs.

In the HFL there are 18 clubs, and 35 in the North Juniors, lets be generous and add in the North Caledonian League which musters another 6 I think, that's 59 clubs.

That's 167 v 59 and a blind man can tell you that a North/South split is not the way to do it.

Yes but did you just ignore the point where I said on North/south tier then go East/West?

[Burnie_man]

Yes but did you just ignore the point where I said on North/south tier then go East/West?

You're not quite grasping the point.

As HTG highlighted, and as I have done above in numbers, you cannot have an equal split between North and South at any stage, as the majority of Scotland's population, and clubs, fall into the southern area, you need to recognise that fact and make allowances for more of these clubs to be represented at the first regional split, hence the three region solution, which currently exists in the Juniors and for which the SJFA wanted to retain if they were to take part in the Pyramid.

16 LL places for potentially 167 clubs versus 18 HFL places for 59 clubs. That is not balanced and makes no sense.

[parsforlife]

is it not possible to go from 3 at tier 6 into 2 at tier 5?

something along the lines of

HL-LL

north-west-east

bottom of HL and LL are relegated, top of 3 regions promoted, relegation play-off between HL and LL 2nd bottom.

[FairWeatherFan]

What would be the break down of clubs if this was the non-league structure?

North Region: HFL, old North & Tayside Juniors.

East Region: EoS, old Fife & East Juniors.

West Region: SoS, old Central & Ayrshire Juniors.

Also would the Tayside juniors be willing to be apart of at least region wide league with those in the Highlands or would they try and stick to the East?

[Wilky1878]

What would be the break down of clubs if this was the non-league structure?

North Region: HFL, old North & Tayside Juniors.

East Region: EoS, old Fife & East Juniors.

West Region: SoS, old Central & Ayrshire Juniors.

Also would the Tayside juniors be willing to be apart of at least region wide league with those in the Highlands or would they try and stick to the East?

I don't think Tayside would have a choice in the matter. In the north you also have the NCL but that's only about six clubs.

[Wilky1878]

You're not quite grasping the point.

As HTG highlighted, and as I have done above in numbers, you cannot have an equal split between North and South at any stage, as the majority of Scotland's population, and clubs, fall into the southern area, you need to recognise that fact and make allowances for more of these clubs to be represented at the first regional split, hence the three region solution, which currently exists in the Juniors and for which the SJFA wanted to retain if they were to take part in the Pyramid.

16 LL places for potentially 167 clubs versus 18 HFL places for 59 clubs. That is not balanced and makes no sense.

There's also the amateur leagues that could be added and potentially want to build their way up the pyramid. Plenty of amateur teams (supposedly) paying wages in Scotland anyway so shouldn't take much to upgrade if they wanted too.

[SpoonTon]

There are 15 clubs in the current LL, 59 clubs in the East Juniors, and 64 in the West Juniors, plus 15 in the EoSFL and 14 in the SoSFL, that's 167 clubs.

In the HFL there are 18 clubs, and 35 in the North Juniors, lets be generous and add in the North Caledonian League which musters another 6 I think, that's 59 clubs.

That's 167 v 59 and a blind man can tell you that a North/South split is not the way to do it.

Current SPFL teams aren't interested in that type of regional system though. And their voices can hardly be ignored.

As the system stands I tend to agree that the setup doesn't work. You could basically add a west region and northeast central region to that with junior teams, i.e. without moving many teams from their current region (whether highland or lowland). It doesn't represent all regions as things stand.

Then again, leaving things as they are makes the head of the system a 10 team national league at the fourth tier. And I doubt Juniors are interested in that at all - even if it was the third tier I doubt the motivation to join would be there.

The problem for teams already in the system is only to do with geography. They have no routes in regional leagues and no desire to join them. What they don't like is several trips to and from the highlands every season. It's not terribly far from Ayrshire to Fife. If we were to have 2 leagues of 16 and regions below that, I tend to think the better solution is to offer lowland sides more opportunities for promotion, e.g. 2.5 places to highlands 0.5.

[Burnie_man]

We’re dealing with a game that is riven with self-interest and over inflated egos, and you will never please everyone.

The point is, for anything to change for the better, we need to rise above it and create a league system fit for purpose. It appears to my eyes that two top divisions of 16 with a three region system below that entirely suits the size of clubs and the geography of the country (I appreciate other will disagree). Smaller part-time league clubs existing on hand outs drop into regional football with the best of the non-league, it may actually help re-invigorate these clubs.

Only the bottom club in the second tier would enter a playoff with the three regional winners. With only one club – potentially – being relegated into regional football, it gives those coming up to the second tier a better chance to survive and establish themselves. As the seasons progress then you look at relegating two clubs.

However as I have said all along it’s never likely to happen, there are far too many stuffed blazers at the likes of East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Montrose etc who offer little to the Scottish game (no offence….) who take playing nationally as some sort of badge of honour (it’s really not) and will defend it to the death, just like the SJFA will defend their set-up to the death, and the EoSFL and so on, and a governing body who really don’t give a monkeys.

Current SPFL teams aren't interested in that type of regional system though. And their voices can hardly be ignored.

As the system stands I tend to agree that the setup doesn't work. You could basically add a west region and northeast central region to that with junior teams, i.e. without moving many teams from their current region (whether highland or lowland). It doesn't represent all regions as things stand.

Then again, leaving things as they are makes the head of the system a 10 team national league at the fourth tier. And I doubt Juniors are interested in that at all - even if it was the third tier I doubt the motivation to join would be there.

The problem for teams already in the system is only to do with geography. They have no routes in regional leagues and no desire to join them. What they don't like is several trips to and from the highlands every season. It's not terribly far from Ayrshire to Fife. If we were to have 2 leagues of 16 and regions below that, I tend to think the better solution is to offer lowland sides more opportunities for promotion, e.g. 2.5 places to highlands 0.5.

[HTG]

Current SPFL teams aren't interested in that type of regional system though. And their voices can hardly be ignored.

Why should they dictate the entire structure when the solution to placate them is rubbish? I've read loads of stuff on here about the Juniors this and the Juniors that but the SPFL are no better. They all just want their own way. The difference in this case is that the Juniors model is much closer to what Scotland needs for clubs operating at Tier 5. The SPFL clubs can continue to play in a nationwide structure for as long as they're good enough to do so. If not, they should join a structure which makes most sense for clubs of their ability.

[parsforlife]

is it not possible to go from 3 at tier 6 into 2 at tier 5?

something along the lines of

HL-LL

north-west-east

bottom of HL and LL are relegated, top of 3 regions promoted, relegation play-off between HL and LL 2nd bottom.

Can someone shoot this down please? I think I may actually have something approaching a solution and that can't be right.

[Burnie_man]

Can someone shoot this down please? I think I may actually have something approaching a solution and that can't be right.

I think it's already been covered by HTG and myself why a North/South split as currently exists, as opposed to a three region split is not fit for purpose.

[HTG]

Can someone shoot this down please? I think I may actually have something approaching a solution and that can't be right.

I can't see how the initial split is ever going to be right. Frankly I'd rather have a Tier 5 national conference than what we have now. That is of course what the sfa and spfl wanted all along and it's nuts given the teams involved but when a regional split happens, it really does need to be in at least 3 directions.

[cowdenbeath]

Lot of good points made in this debate.

Imo any pyramid should have been based on the junior set up. North, East and West feeders with the EOSL and SOSL absorbed into the current junior struture in the south of the country.

The pyramid is already there with the junior set up the other leagues as I said should have been amalgamated into it, too much vested interests put paid to it however.

[HTG]

too much vested interests put paid to it however.

This is what comes out time and again. Nobody can get past the self interest of the various parties.

As a result, I end up wanting to support a team within a pyramid knowing that they won't sign up to what is there. What is there is a desperately poor compromise. The SPFL will only accept what suits them. The HFL will only accept what suits them. The juniors will only accept what suits them. The LL teams are in clover because the current structure absolutely suits them so they'll kick back against any change to it.

Every man for himself and a governing body without a clue.

Edited January 4, 2016 by HTG

[parsforlife]

There are 15 clubs in the current LL, 59 clubs in the East Juniors, and 64 in the West Juniors, plus 15 in the EoSFL and 14 in the SoSFL, that's 167 clubs.

In the HFL there are 18 clubs, and 35 in the North Juniors, lets be generous and add in the North Caledonian League which musters another 6 I think, that's 59 clubs.

That's 167 v 59 and a blind man can tell you that a North/South split is not the way to do it.

I think it's already been covered by HTG and myself why a North/South split as currently exists, as opposed to a three region split is not fit for purpose.

But with playing at 3 regions from tier 6 we aren't looking at the same uneven split between clubs.

If we take your numbers(adjusted for east region clubs north of the Tay, 17 by my count) from earlier we are looking at 42 clubs national

18 HL 15 LL

58 north 78 west 57 east.

Not sure what done about the west region bias, but that exists under a tier 5 3 region split.

[parsforlife]

Expanding on the idea of not having direct splits of regions how does this look?

42 national.

18 HL 18 LL

18 north 18 east 18 west

North east, north west, south-west, Tayside, Ayrshire, central, east, south-east. 18 each.

[Burnie_man]

Expanding on the idea of not having direct splits of regions how does this look?

42 national.

18 HL 18 LL

18 north 18 east 18 west

North east, north west, south-west, Tayside, Ayrshire, central, east, south-east. 18 each.

Again, the LL covers almost three times as many clubs as the HFL, that does not reflect population demographics nor the club spread in Scotland. Even if you consider Tayside Junior clubs to be North, its still heavily weighted too far one way.

If we want more strong clubs challenging for promotion, we need three avenues for that, two of which are south of the Tay, the three Region split with the best of the West, East and North providing the challenge.

36/38 National (16-16, of maybe even 16-18 or 12-12-12 or whatever combination you like)

16 HFL 16 LL West 16 LL East

16 North Superleague (HFL remnants/Juniors), 16 West Superleague (SoS/Juniors), 16 East Superleague (EoS/Juniors) and so on and so forth.......

End of season 4 team group playing home and away over 3 weeks, winner secures a league place for the following season, could be;

Montrose

Brora Rangers

Auchinleck Talbot

Linlithgow Rose

In time, this expands to automatic relegation for the SPFL club, with a three way play-off to decide promotion.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Burnie_man

[Wilky1878]

Again, the LL covers almost three times as many clubs as the HFL, that does not reflect population demographics nor the club spread in Scotland. Even if you consider Tayside Junior clubs to be North, its still heavily weighted too far one way.

If we want more strong clubs challenging for promotion, we need three avenues for that, two of which are south of the Tay, the three Region split with the best of the West, East and North providing the challenge.

36/38 National (16-16, of maybe even 16-18 or 12-12-12 or whatever combination you like)

16 HFL 16 LL West 16 LL East

16 North Superleague (HFL remnants/Juniors), 16 West Superleague (SoS/Juniors), 16 East Superleague (EoS/Juniors) and so on and so forth.......

End of season 4 team group playing home and away over 3 weeks, winner secures a league place for the following season, could be;

Montrose

Brora Rangers

Auchinleck Talbot

Linlithgow Rose

In time, this expands to automatic relegation for the SPFL club, with a three way play-off to decide promotion.

Your idea of a group stage is pretty interesting. 3 weeks at the end of a season could stop a team budgeting for the league they are in though for a longer period, I'd personally try shorten the playoff time.

How about finding a neutral venue with a synthetic surface, so I'll use your example for it:

Montrose

Brora

Auchinleck

Linlithgow

All play each other once in this neutral synthetic surface (a few examples Falkirk, Queens, Hamilton, Alloa).

Beginning on the Saturday with Montrose vs Brora then Auchinleck vs Linlithgow on the Sunday. On the Wednesday Auchinleck vs Brora and on the Thursday Montrose vs Linlithgow. On the Saturday Montrose vs Auchinleck and on the Sunday Brora vs Linlithgow.

This does provide its own problems such as trying to find a surface that isn't too much travel for one team and barely any for another (eg Queens wouldn't be fair on Brora) but I'm sure something like this could be worked out.