League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[10menwent2mow]

There needs to be at least two national divisions before any sort of regionalisation, otherwise relegation from the top flight will be utterly catastrophic. If ICT/Ross Co/Aberdeen or either if the Dundee clubs were to be relegated to a 'north region league' they'd find themselves playing against utter dross. It took years for ICT and Ross Co to work their way through the system and probably for the first time ever, half the top flight is from Perth and North.

However, a quick glance at the championship and the most northerly club is Raith.

Below the championship there is scope for regionalisation and on what basis would have to be decided but there is a definite need for at least two national divisions.

[Jacksgranda]

Not having Falkirk or Dunfermline or whoever in the top league is killing Scottish football stone dead.

I think whoever is the one we're really missing.

[Jacksgranda]

I'm a fan of splitting the regional leagues into 3. Would save the clubs cash in travelling to away games that are the other side of the country. A bigger league all round I think is needed, don't know about anyone else but I'm bored of playing the same teams 4 times a year.

It's the other end of the country that is the problem, not the other side.

[RedLichtie86]

for a while now i have been trying to come up with a league structure that could appease the fans and the players, but leave the chairmen happy financially..... Quite frankly there is not a chance in hell we will see a bigger top flight, bigger championship, 3 regional leagues, etc. The simple fact is that it will all come down to MONEY.

Chairmen from the top 12 clubs will not give up precious millions to a further 4 clubs if the league was expanded to 16.

I could be wrong but currently 12 teams share a prize pot of £16.450.000 (82.25%) of the £20.000.000 total prize pot of the SPFL.

the 10 championship clubs receive a share of £2.410.000 (12.05%) whilst the remaining £1.140.000 (5.7%) is split between League 1 and 2 as prize money.

Premiership clubs receive a first payment of prize money for the season which is roughly £600000 (as of 2014 but is probably nearer £700000)

Championship clubs receive a first payment of prize money for the season which is roughly £60000 (as of 2014 but is probably only fractionally higher)

Now lets say the Premiership is expanded to 16. Firstly the top 12 clubs will lose 3-4 home games worth of match revenue. Some clubs would suffer more than others by losing lucrative derby games. Chairmen will struggle to come to terms with such a drop in revenue. Also with an extra 4 teams in the league the prize money that each club could receive would have to be diluted to give to these clubs. The 82.25% share that the Premiership gets right now would have to be increased to accommodate these extra clubs, which you could take the 5.7% from the League 1 and 2 pot, but that only covers about half of what is needed, plus what happens to the 20 clubs that would suffer from the loss in revenue.. The 12 clubs would have to give up prize money to help bring this through also.

A drop in revenue from a loss of league games and share of prize money would probably be too great a hit for a number of clubs to be able to accept.

But if these top 12 clubs could somehow find a way, there lies another problem.

If the Championship remains a 10 team league with 12.25% prize money pot, the amount of prize money is low but better than nothing. If it goes to 12 it could still work but you will start to stretch it. Any higher than that (16,18 league) then clubs will start to struggle to compete with relegated teams either due to the loss of games or prize money being diluted too far. The full time teams would most likely suffer the most if they failed to gain promotion within the first few years.

So lets say we had a 16 and 18 league at the start of this season. What happens to the 8 teams that are currently in the SPFL? looking at last seasons finishing places where Stirling Albion would be relegated with teams from 4 to 10 in League 2, namely Elgin, Montrose, Berwick, East Fife, Clyde, East Stirlingshire and Annan Athletic. With only the Highland and Lowland Leagues available Elgin and Montrose would have been placed in the Highland League with the other 6 going to the Lowland League.

These clubs would face challenging times ahead of them, possibly facing many years in these regional leagues. I know my club Arbroath has signed players based in the central belt as a greater number of players live and or work there. A number of these players are happy to sign for us as the travelling to games isnt that hard as they can be only be a short drive away to the AWAY ground. But if my team was to drop into the Highland League then we would face big problems in signing players from the central belt or closer to due AWAY games every other weekend would be in Wick, Huntly, Fort William, Fraserburgh, Nairn etc. 2, 3, 4 hours away. Many players would rather join a Junior outfit or another Non League team playing in the central belt.

Now I cant make the same case for Elgin, its location makes the same argument more difficult. they would also face the same problems but being based between Aberdeen and Inverness they would find it easier to sign players from the highland region than my team would be able to. though not impossible.

For the amount of teams based in or near the central belt, there would have to be an East / West split of the regional Lowland League. East covering Angus, Fife, Perth and Kinross, Edinburgh and the Borders on the east side of the M74. The West taking Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Ayrshire, the South of Scotland league, and borders teams West of the M74.

So the 8 teams would have been split 3 ways. Elgin to the Highlands.

Montrose, Berwick, East Fife and East Stirlingshire to the East Lowland League

Stirling Albion, Clyde, Annan Athletic to the West Lowland League.

But in the end, it will all come down to MONEY as the big teams will be reluctant to relinquish any more prize money, the SPFL chiefs will celebrate once Sevco are promoted to the top league as they will base all sponsorship deals, TV deals and league structure on having 4 OF games per season. They will use the OF as their main argument for not changing things. And club boards will rub their hands with glee at the thought of having at least 2 home games against the big 2 per season. And jump for joy when they make it a 10 team league as the best way to get 4 home games.

There isnt a chance in hell that things will change anytime soon.

[Dunning1874]

I'm a fan of splitting the regional leagues into 3. Would save the clubs cash in travelling to away games that are the other side of the country. A bigger league all round I think is needed, don't know about anyone else but I'm bored of playing the same teams 4 times a year.

Surely the only reason for splitting three ways at the first regional level is the number of clubs and the relative strength in depth of East & West regions making it harder for them to progress than clubs in the North? There is no journey within the Lowland region that would be crippling financially for clubs to undertake regularly if there was a two way split.

I have often questioned why you couldn't have one Lowland level then split East & West beneath that, but I do see the point that it would be harder for clubs there than clubs in the Highlands to progress through the pyramid due to to the strength of that Lowland League. We have a stalemate here: surely a compromise that could be found is current non-league and junior clubs accepting that current League Two clubs don't want to lose their national status through reconstruction, so accepting that the SPFL will stay at 42 teams playing nationally, while as a trade-off the SPFL could accept that a three-way split at the first regional level rather than two is the preferred option of most clubs currently outwith the pyramid, so go with three-ways in return for being reassured that as long as they're among the top 42 clubs they'll continue to play nationally?

The concern there is how the current Lowland League clubs would react to having their league split in two, but it would also mitigate the problem of junior clubs taking the huff at being - entirely correctly - expected to enter the pyramid below the current LL teams. Split them in two and you can have more juniors going straight into the top flight of their region.

[RabidAl]

Not including sevco , Who brought the biggest away support to east end park in the league since you went down and what was it?

Realised that I hadn't answered this one...(it sounded like a trivia question?)...my guess would be Morton, Ayr or Cowden - but couldn't tell you how many or when as I've been a stranger to EEP for a long time.

As you well know the Lowland League is essentially South/East Leagues plus a couple of Glasgow area teams. While there is overlap between these East teams and the East Juniors around the Edinburgh area, one then goes north and the other goes south. In the East Juniors you'd be hard pushed to find a distance too much over 80 miles between teams, that would be far greater if it was extended down to Berwick and the south/east teams in the Lowland League. Regional leagues haven't tended to develop over such large distances themselves.

Four regions would be a better solution for this IMO. And because we're dealing with boundaries that are always going to be slightly awkward (East Fife are much closer to Stirling than it is Berwick, Spartans are much closer to Glasgow BSC than they are Montrose), clubs in certain zones could choose which league they are affiliated with.

But lets not get away from the fact that the central belt in Scotland isn't really that big and is pretty well connected. The Highlands and Aberdeenshire account for almost half of Scotland's land-mass, and isn't connected nearly as well. There's not a huge need for those reasons to split the first level below national leagues into more than 2 territories. You'd just need to accept that they weren't exactly equal levels even if they appeared to be at the same level of the pyramid.

I think you're right insofar as the Highland/Lowland divide reflects the physical geography of our country.

I suppose that, because of the Grampians being in the way for easy travel to/from the south, the 'highland' region would need to be the cornerstone of the regional system, and so the number of clubs in this area would be the basic number of clubs that a regional unit would aim to be formed from if we are to keep the pyramid broadly fair.

{And the LL shows that this initial lowland/highland division has helped the 'lowland' area to achieve parity with the highlands in terms of the LL goal of strength in depth of licenced non-league clubs (22 lowland region; 20 highland region at present).}

However, the total number of clubs is our proxy for the human geography - the population - of our sport.

And, as any pyramid structure demands fair opportunities for progression to its participants, a proportionate split of the population - taking into consideration the size of the basic 'highland' unit - should be the rational way forward.

So, if we are restructuring this summer and looking at the licenced part-time seniors (who the pyramid really affects at this moment), both league and non-league, this is most equitably achieved by a three-way divide of the licenced clubs, which would be approximately 23 west to 20 east to 22 north - rather than a lopsided 43 lowland to 22 highland.

In this way, the rationale for the lowland/highland divide appears to weaken with ever more lowland clubs becoming licenced - which is inevitable given their greater numbers overall - and the rationale also strengthens for a three-way split with any potential restructuring of tiers 3 and 4.

Unless, that is, we want clubs piling up in the bloated divisions of a lowland region, with a relatively sparse highland region, and requiring some contorted promotion system to guarantee that an even number of clubs come from east, west, central regions yet also from the same league.

It is much simpler to keep clubs within more evenly balanced regions where there are, on average, shorter journeys and more local rivalries.

Similarly, if the juniors are included, it would be sensible to begin with a three-way split on the basis of fairness - about 97 west: 87 east: 62 north all-in; a 3:3:2 divide of the clubs, rather than a 3:1-weighted split with 184 lowland: 62 highland.

This would ensure strength in depth (as, admittedly, the LL has done in terms of licencing until now) and also continuity for the juniors.

Thereafter, if there is deemed sufficient strength, and if a central region can be carved out, the overall population of part-time clubs could allow for a fourth region, to give 3 'lowland' regions of broadly similar size the 1 'highland' region (50-60 in each).

Yawn. Apologies.

Edited January 28, 2016 by RabidAl

[RabidAl]

I suppose there's a more 'organic' alternative that could do away with the juniors/seniors distinction and acrimony and just give us plain old non-leaguers.

It might need the Lowland and Highland leagues to act as de-facto league bodies for their entire 'regions' but, essentially, it would require:

- it be mandatory that they accepted applications from any licenced club in their respective area (Angus clubs would be accepted where they applied); and

- there to be no mandatory relegation from the league as a whole (i.e. the bottom division of the overall Highland or Lowland set-up).

This could see a continual expansion of their membership, with the member clubs themselves deciding on the structure of the divisions - such as whether the lowlands would go for two tiers, or for an east/west split of teams - and choosing when to divide into smaller 'districts' when membership had expanded enough.

It could address the issue of where clubs originally from, say, the West Super League, South of Scotland League, or even 'new' clubs like BSC Glasgow would be relegated to, since they wouldn't have to be relegated anywhere - but they could re-apply to join their former league/league body if they wished.

It could also address the issue of how to sort out who would get priority from, for example, the East Super League and East of Scotland League clubs, as clubs from either could gain a licence, then apply, be automatically accepted, and then take it from there.

[lionel hutz]

An rough idea:

EDIT: Apologies for the bad alignment.

Premiership (12) Championship (14) National League (16)

Aberdeen Hibernian (P) Stranraer

Celtic Rangers Stenhousemuir

Hearts Falkirk Albion Rovers (P)

Ross County Raith Rovers (PO) Cowdenbeath

St Jonhstone Queen of the South Forfar Athletic (PO)

Dundee Greenock Morton Brechin City

Partick Thistle St Mirren Elgin City

Inverness CT Dumbarton East Fife

Dundee United Livingston Queens Park

Motherwell Alloa Athletic Annan Athletic

Hamitlon Accies (PO) Dunfermline (PO) Arbroath

Killmarnock ® Peterhead ® Clyde

Ayr United ® Montrose (PO) - Plays "Worst" Tier 4 winner

Airdrie ® Berwick Rangers ®

East Stirling ®

Pecking Order: HL/LL > EOS/SOS License > Other License>Senior close to License>Junior near License>Junior>Senior

Highland League Prem (16) Eastern Prem (16) Western Prem (16)

Brora Rangers Edinburgh City Cumbernauld Colts

Cove Rangers Spartans East Kilbride

Formartine United Stirling University Dalbeattie Star

Turriff United Edinburgh University Gretna

Inverurie Loco Works Whitehall Welfare BSC Glasgow

Nairn County Selkirk Threave Rovers

Buckie Thistle Gala Fairydean Wigtown and Bladnoch

Fraserburgh Preston Athletic Edusport Academy

Wick Academy Vale of Leithen St Cuthbert Wanderers

Keith Burntisland Ship. Newton Stewart

Forres Mechanics Civil Service Strollers Creetown

Lossiemouth Coldstream Pollok

Deveronvale Hawick RA Glenafton Athletic

Clachnacuddin Linlithgow Rose Kilbirnie Ladeside

Strathspey Thistle ® Duns ® Hurlford United ®

Huntly ® Bonnyrigg Rose ® Petershill ®

Highland Division 1 (14) East Division 1 (14) Western Division 1 (14)

Fort William (P) Kelty Hearts (P) Irvine Meadow (P)

Rothes Musselburgh Ath Largs Thistle

Golspie Sutherland (PO) Sauchie Juniors (PO) Cumnock (PO)

Banks O'Dee Newtongrange Star Greenock

Halkirk United Broxburn Athletic Rutherglen Glencairn

Aberdeen Uni Hill of Beath Hawthorn Whitletts Victoria

Lewis United Haddington Athletic Renfrew

Orkney FC Dalkeith Thistle Rossvale

Stonehaven Falkirk Juniors Maryhill

Dyce Juniors Downfield Carluke Rovers

Culter Blackburn Utd Benburb

Hall Russell United (PO) Kirriemuir Thistle (PO) Port Glasgow (PO)

Inverness City ® Dunbar United ® Girvan ®

Hermes ® Glenrothes ® Kirkintilloch RR ®

Relegation to:
North East, North West ----- East North, East South ----- ADL, CDL SoS

(NCFL incorp. into NW) (EoS incop. into ES) (SoS as new district)

2nd Edit:

North East (16) North West (14)

Ellon United (P) Dufftown (P)

Banchory St Ternan Buckie Rovers

Maud (PO) Nairn St Ninian (PO)

Bridge of Don Forres Thistle

Deveronside Islavale

FC Stoneywood Spey Valley

Fraserburgh United Grantown

Buchanhaven Hearts Fochabers

Colony Park New Elgin

East End Burghead Thistle

Longside Lossiemouth United

Newmachar United Thurso

Parkvale Invergordon

Sunnybank Alness United

Glentanar

Cruden Bay

East North 1 (16) East South 1 (16)

Dundee North End (P) Bo'ness United (P)

Carnoustie Panmure Mussleburgh Athletic

St Andrews United (PO) Penicuik Athletic(PO)

Broughty Athletic Camelon Juniors

Tayport Fauldhouse United

Jeanfield Swifts Bathgate Thistle

Dundonald Bluebell Edinburgh United

Lochee United Armadale Thistle

Forfar West End Arniston Rangers

Montrose Roselea Oakley United

Kennoway Star Hearts Whitburn Juniors

Dundee Violet Tranent Juniors

Thornton Hibs Easthouses Lily MW

Blairgowrie (PO) West Calder United (PO)

Lochore Welfare ® Kirkcaldy YM ®

East North 2 (9) East South 2 (13)

East Craigie (P) Rosyth (P)

Kinnoull (PO) Lochgelly Albert (PO)

Arbroath Victoria Pumpherston

Scone Thistle Livingston United

Coupar Angus Stoneyburn Juniors

Brechin Vics Craigroyston

Lochee Harp Eyemouth United

Newburgh Herriot-Watt University

Forfar Albion Leith Athletic

Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

Ormiston

Peebles Rovers

Tynecasle

CBA with west region

Edited February 9, 2016 by Marr1

[Wilky1878]

An rough idea:

EDIT: Apologies for the bad alignment.

Premiership (12) Championship (14) National League (16)

Aberdeen Hibernian (P) Stranraer

Celtic Rangers Stenhousemuir

Hearts Falkirk Albion Rovers (P)

Ross County Raith Rovers (PO) Cowdenbeath

St Jonhstone Queen of the South Forfar Athletic (PO)

Dundee Greenock Morton Brechin City

Partick Thistle St Mirren Elgin City

Inverness CT Dumbarton East Fife

Dundee United Livingston Queens Park

Motherwell Alloa Athletic Annan Athletic

Hamitlon Accies (PO) Dunfermline (PO) Arbroath

Killmarnock ® Peterhead ® Clyde

Ayr United ® Montrose (PO) - Plays "Worst" Tier 4 winner

Airdrie ® Berwick Rangers ®

East Stirling ®

Pecking Order: HL/LL > EOS/SOS License > Other License>Senior close to License>Junior near License>Junior>Senior

Highland League Prem (16) Eastern Prem (16) Western Prem (16)

Brora Rangers Edinburgh City Cumbernauld Colts

Cove Rangers Spartans East Kilbride

Formartine United Stirling University Dalbeattie Star

Turriff United Edinburgh University Gretna

Inverurie Loco Works Whitehall Welfare BSC Glasgow

Nairn County Selkirk Threave Rovers

Buckie Thistle Gala Fairydean Wigtown and Bladnoch

Fraserburgh Preston Athletic Edusport Academy

Wick Academy Vale of Leithen St Cuthbert Wanderers

Keith Burntisland Ship. Newton Stewart

Forres Mechanics Civil Service Strollers Creetown

Lossiemouth Coldstream Pollok

Deveronvale Hawick RA Glenafton Athletic

Clachnacuddin Linlithgow Rose Kilbirnie Ladeside

Strathspey Thistle ® Duns ® Hurlford United ®

Huntly ® Bonnyrigg Rose ® Petershill ®

Highland Division 1 (14) East Division 1 (14) Western Division 1 (14)

Fort William (P) Kelty Hearts (P) Irvine Meadow (P)

Rothes Musselburgh Ath Largs Thistle

Golspie Sutherland (PO) Sauchie Juniors (PO) Cumnock (PO)

Banks O'Dee Newtongrange Star Greenock

Halkirk United Broxburn Athletic Rutherglen Glencairn

Aberdeen Uni Hill of Beath Hawthorn Whitletts Victoria

Lewis United Haddington Athletic Renfrew

Orkney FC Dalkeith Thistle Rossvale

Stonehaven Falkirk Juniors Maryhill

Dyce Juniors Downfield Carluke Rovers

Culter Blackburn Utd Benburb

Hall Russell United Kirriemuir Thistle Port Glasgow

Inverness City ® Dunbar United ® Girvan ®

Hermes ® Glenrothes ® Kirkintilloch RR ®

Relegation to:

North East, North West ----- East North, East South ----- ADL, CDL SoS

(NCFL incorp. into NW) (EoS incop. into ES) (SoS as new district)

What's the script with your national league? Is it just a normal league set up or a conference like One?

[lionel hutz]

What's the script with your national league? Is it just a normal league set up or a conference like One?

Just a name. 16 teams playing either 30 or 37 games a season

[effeffsee_the2nd]

14 is the most awkward number to make a fixture list out of

[lionel hutz]

14 is the most awkward number to make a fixture list out of

14 in the Championship: 1x home and away, 7-7 split to make it either 32 or 38 games

[effeffsee_the2nd]

aye , it just leaves one team with no game each week, including the last day of the season. you could just live with that so long as you arrange it so its not the same team sitting out the last day every year

[Pride_of_the_Clyde]

aye , it just leaves one team with no game each week, including the last day of the season. you could just live with that so long as you arrange it so its not the same team sitting out the last day every year

The teams in seventh and eighth at the split are off the last week as probability says they're least likely to be involved in any incentivised match at the end of the season.

Common sense.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

works for me i suppose, would still prefer leagues of 16 but you know the clubs wont go for a shorter season with less games against big teams

[SpoonTon]

14 stinks of adding a couple of extra teams simply because there is a will for a larger league. It serves no real benefits.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

14 stinks of adding a couple of extra teams simply because there is a will for a larger league. It serves no real benefits.

Pretty much ive got to say. the only larger league that would realisticly make for a more entertaining season is 16. and clubs dont want A) fewer games and b) less home games against bigger sides so they're unlikely to vote for it.

Pretty uninspiring outlook from our privincial clubs TBH. your buisness model is based on you playing larger competetors more often so they fill the away end rather than actualy making your product more appealing to your core support. but thats scottish football isnt it

[Wilky1878]

works for me i suppose, would still prefer leagues of 16 but you know the clubs wont go for a shorter season with less games against big teams

Of course clubs wont buy into this as they're all for the short term. They all want to act now and think later in terms of grabbing as much as they can now before our game really goes down the shiter but I think a 16 club league with the new league cup format making up for lost revenue is the only way forward.

[Dunning1874]

Obviously if you've got three regions below the national level you want to give the winners of each automatic promotion, so with that in mind you want a league of 16 at the national level as relegating three teams from a league of 10 or 12 is excessive, while leagues of 14 are invariably absolute shite. If you're also keeping 42 teams nationally, then for me the sensible way to split it would be 16-10-16.

You have 16 at the bottom which allows a fair chance of progression for teams outside the national leagues, who are in three regional leagues rather than two keeping clubs outside the current pyramid happy, you're not cutting the number of teams playing nationally which keeps current League Two clubs happy, and you have a smaller second tier which will go some way to alleviating the main problem of a larger top flight, namely that the financial drop from the first tier to the second tier (from a wholly full-time league to a mostly part-time one) will be less of an issue, with more games in the second tier.

Of course this is never going to happen, as Premiership clubs will never accept dropping from 18 or 19 home games to 15 in the first place.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Either that or just go for 16 16 16 then regional. It allows you to have decent movement up and down . It still makes the bottom tier semi attractive for non league teams . No current national teams need drop automaticly and its less of a jump than 3 regions to full time tesms. Like ive said theres no perfect fit for scotland. Youre alwsys going to have one b*****d nationsl tier that no one realy wants to be in