Striking Options

[Officer Barbrady]

Based on one match, i should fucking hope not when several Scottish strikers have demonstrably proven records at his level. 

 

The problem with our frontmen, as far as i can see, isn't the lack of options, at least for where we want to be; there are four or five playing perhaps just slightly beneath the standard what Southern Ireland have, who simply would have been given a proper chance by Eire by now if they were indeed Irish.

 

Those endorsing Strachan's inability to seek change, are imo looking far too deep for meaning where putting alternatives to Fletcher is concerned. It's not rocket science; again, those shouting in valiant defence of The System, that unbreakable force that is Strachan's weakest point, far exceeding him being a disrespectful, cheeky little b*****d, appear to believe it's a good thing our best 25 footballers play under a culture of fear, in a system designed to prevent us taking a hammering, instead of look for alternatives.

 

Maybe i'm missing a trick, but The System, surely isn't set up purely to protect the inferior players who present no challenge to the manager, rather than built to encourage a cohesive, creative attempt to actually succeed, using players other than those who have repeatedly failed. There is talk of Fletcher's role in chance creation; i am not averse to seeing the logic behind it, but only when it works. Who's to say that the midfield wouldn't find ways of playing with other, different forwards? Far less, gain confidence in their own game, if the said forwards delivered what Steven fucking Fletcher does not, and can not? 

 

We had a dreadful dearth of forwards the last time we qualified.....in the 98 campiagn, after Gallacher's 7/8 goals, the next highest was David Hopkin, a midfielder, who played three games with two goals.....between Durie, Jackson and Booth, we got one goal from 14 appearances.....with solo strikes from Spencer and McGinlay totting it up. Tom Boyd, McAllister and Collins, also one each. By the next campaign's end, (England playoff), Dodds, McCann, plus McSwegan and Burchill ( albeit 2/3 caps tops) and Hutchison were drafted in.....some were ok, others were shit. They weren't brought in because they were great, but because they were the best available, and we are in danger of repeating those mistakes, over and over again. We did it with Miller, and are doing it now with Fletcher.

 

No wonder McCormack and Griffiths may have a chip on their shoulder about his selection, as they're certainly not trying any less to get in the team. Strachan needs to open his beedy little eyes and see it. 

 

 

[Gordopolis]

John Spencer never scored for us in 14 caps.
Not hugely relevant to your point, I know, but an itch I had to scratch.

[Officer Barbrady]

My bad, Jackson scored in Latvia, not Spenny. So, between him and Durie, 2 goals from twelve qualifying appearances. Massive change.....we didn't know how good we had it.

[forameus]

22 hours ago, 53_and_counting said:

the point is that these guys were good enough performers at lower than EPL level to be taken in the squads and given chances, remember this time last season Fletcher wasnt even getting a strip on matchdays for sunderland who were struggling for goals (the goals he supposedly creates) instead sunderland try an actual goalscorer in defoe and their fortunes changed

By next tournament Fletcher will have been in the scotland team for 10 years, in the last 8 years he has managed 8 goals in 28 appearances, 6 of which came in the 2 gibralter games, 2 goals in 26 games is an absolutely brutal return and it shows that

euro 2008, 21 goals in 12 games

WC 2010, 6 goals in 8 games

euro 2012, 8 goals in 9 games

WC 2014, 8 goals in 12 games

euro 2016, 22 goals in 10 games (12 against Gibraltar which kinda skews the figures a bit)

our goals for tally has been on the decline for years now, so clearly the idea that fletcher up front himself works is wrong, he's not scoring goals and obviously we arent scoring many from the chances he creates (if he creates many)

 

So completely brushing off your pretty much fully incorrect post I replied to?  Fair enough.

[forameus]

19 hours ago, Arthur I. Tess said:

yeh, I agree

we conceded too many

wales' performances were based on a rock solid defence

and they aren't exactly endowed with top talent in terms of defenders either

I'd go with Smith and Griffiths up front in a 4-4-2

We conceded too many, so let's take out a player from that shielding midfield - shielding our pretty bang average defenders - and put him up front.  That's the gemme.

19 hours ago, Arthur I. Tess said:

defend in depth then knock it up the pitch when we win the ball

do a leicester

So your plan is to use our already ropey defenders to defend deep?  Good luck.  And say that somehow works, you want to knock it up the pitch to extremely isolated forwards...which ones are they that can take the ball down and make something happen when the rest of their teammates are camped deep in their own half?

Don't "do a Leicester", don't do an anyone.  Just find a system that suits the best players we have and stick to that.  Don't look longingly over the fence at someone else and try and copy them.

[oneteaminglasgow]

So your plan is to use our already ropey defenders to defend deep?  Good luck.  And say that somehow works, you want to knock it up the pitch to extremely isolated forwards...which ones are they that can take the ball down and make something happen when the rest of their teammates are camped deep in their own half?

Don't "do a Leicester", don't do an anyone.  Just find a system that suits the best players we have and stick to that.  Don't look longingly over the fence at someone else and try and copy them.

Pretty much this.

It's pretty clear that strachan has identified the 3 behind the striker as the best area of the team. Rightly or wrongly, he's playing a system to try and get the best out of them, which I'd argue he's done fairly well at, as shown by how much improved Maloney and others have been in his tenure. His big failure, in my eyes, has been in organising the defence.

[forameus]

11 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

Pretty much this.

It's pretty clear that strachan has identified the 3 behind the striker as the best area of the team. Rightly or wrongly, he's playing a system to try and get the best out of them, which I'd argue he's done fairly well at, as shown by how much improved Maloney and others have been in his tenure. His big failure, in my eyes, has been in organising the defence.

 

Yeah, pretty much my thinking too.  He's identified the strongest area of the team, and he's playing to those strengths.  That doesn't mean we're doing particularly well, but the "whose to say" attitude of "let's just try something new" is damaging.  This isn't a club side.  Over the two-ish year period from the end of a tournament to the start of the next, we're going to play at most 10 competitive games, along with 6 or so potential friendlies (which the SFA probably won't organise).  That is nowhere near enough time to throw things at a wall and see what sticks, the way club teams can do.  We absolutely have to play to our strengths.

Now, I completely see where people are coming from when they say that it hasn't brought us much success, but moving on to the next thing is only going to work if in the minds of the coaching team that new thing has a high chance of being better.  If they don't believe it is, then that's up to them.  I tend to agree with them - unless they stumble on some ancient black magic, I'm not convinced that with the players we currently have, there is any other way we could play as effectively as we do now.

The unfortunate truth is that our options in the key defensive places - in my opinion, center backs and one of the sitting midfielders - just aren't good enough.  Brown is a shadow of the player he was, and when that's the case, our weak defensive options are going to be put under more pressure.  It doesn't matter if we've set up going forward in a way that we can score three goals a game if it means we're conceding at least four.  I wouldn't entirely blame Strachan for it either - he can't magic players up that don't exist.  And it isn't as if those players are playing within themselves - I'd say they're playing just about as well as they can.  Unfortunately, that level is still pretty poor.

[dogmc]

And this worked when we used pacey players in wide areas.   

You can pinpoint the failure in the last campaign to the time he tried to shoehorn in Matt Ritchie to a winning side.    

I'd have absolutely no problem with having Ritchie/ Snodgrass / Maloney / Naismith playing centrally behind the striker.    On the wings some pace please so Anya +  another quick player.   Could be McKay or Forrest ( and I appreciate they're not great players ) but we need pace in our side.   

Then please play midfielders who are comfortable on the ball.   The two shielding the defence don't need to be wonderful tacklers as they'll be shielding rather than sticking their foot in.   

Up top I really liked how Snodgrass linked up with Fletcher in the Croatia game, so I'd play him,  BUT IT MUST BE CENTRAL WITH PACE DOWN BOTH SIDES. 

Gordon 
Hutton Martin Hanley Tierney
Morrison Bannan
McKay Snodgrass Anya
Fletcher 


 

Mckay looked out of his depth in the u21s so nowhere near senior team for me. Robertson is currently better than Tierney. Agree total about the shape v Croatia tho. Odd to see wgs apologists ignoring the system that worked really well v Croatia n pushing system that sees us struggle to to scrape one nil wins against Georgia n roi at home n fail horribly against every other full time pro team.

[kenny131]

On 05/08/2016 at 16:23, forameus said:

That'll be the Will Grigg who didn't play any games at the tournament, aye?  The one that has scored a mighty one goal in eight appearances?  And that was in a friendly I believe.  But he has a pure bantz song about him, so it must be true.

And Hal Robson Kanu really fired his country to the Euros with his one goal in qualifying (that came when they were already ahead against Cyprus).  He's a better example, but effectively only gets hyped due to one very, very good goal.  I remember Fletcher scoring a very good goal against Poland too...

Lafferty is the only one that can be used as an example - he scored 7 in qualifying, so pretty instrumental.  What level was he playing at at the time?  Technically the Premier League, with Norwich, although he was on loan to Rizespor and Birmingham City in that time.  Not really sure what point you're trying to make with that.

Taking Lafferty out of the equation, I'm not really sure what's comparable.  You're talking about players who had decent tournaments despite not playing at a high level and being pretty limited.  We had a number of strikers fitting that mould during qualifying, in fact you could argue every striker we had was like that (except Fletcher, who is limited in finishing, but was playing at a higher level).  Only we didn't qualify - whose to say on another alternate timeline we qualified and Martin, Fletcher and Griffiths chipped in with goals that went way beyond what we thought they were capable of?  Unlikely, but I'm sure most of the Belgium side thought it was pretty unlikely that Hal Robson Kanu would send them on such an outrageous dummy, before he did.

 

Wales played only one forward technically.  If you want to count Bale, fair enough, will give you that, but given he's Gareth Bale, it's hardly comparable to anything we can put out.  Northern Ireland did play 2 up...oh no, wait, they didn't.  They played Lafferty up front on his own.

But yeah, they're totally "not afraid" to play more than one striker, despite only playing...one.

Biggest pile of shite ever posted on here ya troll

[kenny131]

7 hours ago, forameus said:

We conceded too many, so let's take out a player from that shielding midfield - shielding our pretty bang average defenders - and put him up front.  That's the gemme.

So your plan is to use our already ropey defenders to defend deep?  Good luck.  And say that somehow works, you want to knock it up the pitch to extremely isolated forwards...which ones are they that can take the ball down and make something happen when the rest of their teammates are camped deep in their own half?

Don't "do a Leicester", don't do an anyone.  Just find a system that suits the best players we have and stick to that.  Don't look longingly over the fence at someone else and try and copy them.

Defence starts with the forwards,  if you ever played football you would know that. Having a statue upfront does  us no favours

[kenny131]

6 hours ago, forameus said:

Yeah, pretty much my thinking too.  He's identified the strongest area of the team, and he's playing to those strengths.  That doesn't mean we're doing particularly well, but the "whose to say" attitude of "let's just try something new" is damaging.  This isn't a club side.  Over the two-ish year period from the end of a tournament to the start of the next, we're going to play at most 10 competitive games, along with 6 or so potential friendlies (which the SFA probably won't organise).  That is nowhere near enough time to throw things at a wall and see what sticks, the way club teams can do.  We absolutely have to play to our strengths.

Now, I completely see where people are coming from when they say that it hasn't brought us much success, but moving on to the next thing is only going to work if in the minds of the coaching team that new thing has a high chance of being better.  If they don't believe it is, then that's up to them.  I tend to agree with them - unless they stumble on some ancient black magic, I'm not convinced that with the players we currently have, there is any other way we could play as effectively as we do now.

The unfortunate truth is that our options in the key defensive places - in my opinion, center backs and one of the sitting midfielders - just aren't good enough.  Brown is a shadow of the player he was, and when that's the case, our weak defensive options are going to be put under more pressure.  It doesn't matter if we've set up going forward in a way that we can score three goals a game if it means we're conceding at least four.  I wouldn't entirely blame Strachan for it either - he can't magic players up that don't exist.  And it isn't as if those players are playing within themselves - I'd say they're playing just about as well as they can.  Unfortunately, that level is still pretty poor.

Explain this heralded team selection and system you keep banging on about that has worked so well.....because I, m pretty sure we all watched the rest of the uk playing in the euros from the comforts of home.  WHAT IS YOUR POINT explain the system don't work the team don't win our striker don't score.  WHAT ARE YOU WATCHING WERE ALL NOT

[Gordopolis]

S Fletcher off with a head injury today. Sounds pretty brutal - shame he couldn't get off to a flying start.

[kenny131]

33 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

S Fletcher off with a head injury today. Sounds pretty brutal - shame he couldn't get off to a flying start.

He won't hit double figures this season even though he's dropping down a level.....as some on here would have us believe he should be standout in that division but he won't be

[LinkinFighter]

4 4 fucking 2!

[Officer Barbrady]

The tail is definitely wagging the dog here. Any other managerial administration, in any other country, would NOT be placing such importance in mollycoddling the players at their disposal, by creating a system in which they are designed to stagnate a bit less, with each passing game. The majority, would tell them to man the f**k up, learn to take defeats on the chin, learn from them and attempt to come back better players for the experience......and if not, he'll fucking chuck them. 

 

Under this endorsement, i'd expect that genuinely better footballers who may emerge over perhaps the next decade, are judged on their merits within a shity system, than their own ability and achievements. The clamour to prove that Strachan has 'no place in his team' for perfectly good alternatives, leaves it very possible that in ten years, we won't be picking players on ability at all, but how 'safe' and 'reliable' they were in The System in comparison to fucking Scott Brown or Steven Fletcher. 

[Officer Barbrady]

On 8/6/2016 at 19:00, forameus said:

Yeah, pretty much my thinking too.  He's identified the strongest area of the team, and he's playing to those strengths.  That doesn't mean we're doing particularly well, but the "whose to say" attitude of "let's just try something new" is damaging.  This isn't a club side.  Over the two-ish year period from the end of a tournament to the start of the next, we're going to play at most 10 competitive games, along with 6 or so potential friendlies (which the SFA probably won't organise).  That is nowhere near enough time to throw things at a wall and see what sticks, the way club teams can do.  We absolutely have to play to our strengths.

Now, I completely see where people are coming from when they say that it hasn't brought us much success, but moving on to the next thing is only going to work if in the minds of the coaching team that new thing has a high chance of being better.  If they don't believe it is, then that's up to them.  I tend to agree with them - unless they stumble on some ancient black magic, I'm not convinced that with the players we currently have, there is any other way we could play as effectively as we do now.

The unfortunate truth is that our options in the key defensive places - in my opinion, center backs and one of the sitting midfielders - just aren't good enough.  Brown is a shadow of the player he was, and when that's the case, our weak defensive options are going to be put under more pressure.  It doesn't matter if we've set up going forward in a way that we can score three goals a game if it means we're conceding at least four.  I wouldn't entirely blame Strachan for it either - he can't magic players up that don't exist.  And it isn't as if those players are playing within themselves - I'd say they're playing just about as well as they can.  Unfortunately, that level is still pretty poor.

Fair enough, but you're basically entrusting the management team to get it right using the same tools, with which they haven't got it anywhere near right, so far.

 

The truth is, we're playing a monotonously shite version of the style of play created in the late 90s, for keeping teams compact, and well-numbered when hitting on the break. Perfected by teams like France, Portugal and Italy, it worked because the players were good......not because the manager was obsessed by protecting them. Strachan's doing them no favours.....Scottish players need to find a way of playing which brings the sort of results smaller nations than us regularly churn out, and they need to take a good few pumpings to iron.out their flaws along the way.

 

 We're nearly twenty years behind, and Strachan's lack of interest in finding a different way to bring success, ensures we'll lag behind for years after he's gone. 

[forameus]

On 8/7/2016 at 01:06, kenny131 said:

Biggest pile of shite ever posted on here ya troll

Which parts?  Care to point out which parts were "pish"?

Maybe it's the part about Will Gr...no, that's completely accurate.  Kanu?  Nope, pretty accurate again.  In fact, I'd be very interested to see which parts you disagree with.  There's very little opinion in there, it's all stuff you can easily google.  Given I replied to you directly, maybe you disagreed with those parts in particular.  So that would be the number of forwards teams played.  Again, go look at the formations the teams you mentioned played.  They played one forward. 

So go away, have a think, then try and come back with a proper reply, champ.

Troll...

 

On 8/7/2016 at 01:08, kenny131 said:

Defence starts with the forwards,  if you ever played football you would know that. Having a statue upfront does  us no favours

So which forwards have we got who would be this first guardian of defence?  Griffiths?  Rhodes?  Kris Doolan?  If our defence should really start with our forwards, then Fletcher is probably the best of a terrible bunch.

It's almost like not every team needs to play the same way...

[forameus]

11 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Fair enough, but you're basically entrusting the management team to get it right using the same tools, with which they haven't got it anywhere near right, so far.

 

The truth is, we're playing a monotonously shite version of the style of play created in the late 90s, for keeping teams compact, and well-numbered when hitting on the break. Perfected by teams like France, Portugal and Italy, it worked because the players were good......not because the manager was obsessed by protecting them. Strachan's doing them no favours.....Scottish players need to find a way of playing which brings the sort of results smaller nations than us regularly churn out, and they need to take a good few pumpings to iron.out their flaws along the way.

 

 We're nearly twenty years behind, and Strachan's lack of interest in finding a different way to bring success, ensures we'll lag behind for years after he's gone. 

I'm not entrusting anyone.  If you could go into the future, and I saw a new manager who could somehow get better out of what we have and guide us to a World Cup in Russia, then I'd come back to the present and do the proverbial driving of WGS to the airport myself.  

I just don't see tearing things up and starting them again as being particularly useful.  We're not the sort of nation who can attract a high-profile manager that we know will be able to turn us around.  We're notorious - like our neighbours to the South - of tearing it up with a view to putting a long-term plan in place, and then tearing it up in the short-term.  I have no faith in them putting someone in place where we're not going to be sitting on this very board in two years time saying the same old things.  That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but stability is marginally the better option here.  

In terms of style of play, saying it's "monotonously shite" is pretty revisionist.  We started out the group pretty well, certainly compared to the Levein era (which I seem to remember you championing).  But we didn't qualify, so now it's all terrible.  I admit, we were shown to be woefully inadequate against France and Italy, as expected, but we looked capable against Germany - albeit defensively dreadful - and good against Poland despite blips at the very start and the very end.  Against Denmark at Hampden I thought we tweaked things slightly in playing a more recognised forward in the slot behind the main forward, and we started really well before it descended into the usual friendly pacing.  Sure we're not lighting things up, but we're never going to.  If you think it really is shite, fair enough, your perogative, but I see that as pretty revisionist.  

I agree on them needing to find "their" way of playing though, but not in the way you're saying.  We can't keep looking over fences at other nations, wringing our hands and saying "what are they doing that we can do?"  We need to forget about everyone else.  Northern Ireland made the second round.  That's great, but that's not to say that what they do will work for us.  If a team shit-fests their way to qualifying and we employ the same tactics, and still lose, then what?  We need to find the way that suits us.  Because I guarantee that if they do "take a good few pumpings" along the way, then the knives are going to be out with the majority.  Some will accept it as necessary, but the majority won't.  And that brings everything back to the same problem - we're never going to get through a long-term rebuild of our game, because two years into it there will be elements desperate to tear things up and start again.

[troopio]

So Formeus how did the best of a bad bunch Fletcher do yesterday ha?..........Joking aside he got injured so cant slate him at all, the most expensive Scot ever was he even playing??

Of course it is only early days!

One thing though, being an Aberdeen Fan from a Celtic Mad Family, I watched the Celtic game with my Dad and based on what I saw I can honestly say that if I was basing it purely on that one game then Griffiths is NOT the answer. Granted his pace and ball set up the winner so that ticks certain boxes I guess but and I have seen this with him before I do not think I have ever seen a more greedier striker than him. Now, of course you have to be greedy and single minded as a striker but my point is his level of greediness is that kind of immature petulant greed whereby he just keeps trying to do the same thing time and time again. I get he scored 40 goals last season fair dos but really does he have to take a shot EVERY time he has the ball, there is nothing worse than a player taking an aimless shot and wasting it when there are 3/4 in better positions than him. I would understand this from a younger player but the guy is 25/26 now and played enough games to understand how it works. Do not get me wrong I am all for Strachan picking someone other than the carthorse Fletcher or the even bigger Carthorse Martin but unless Griffiths can learn to be a team player then he isn't one Ill be looking to clamour for again in a hurry.

[forameus]

1 minute ago, troopio said:

So Formeus how did the best of a bad bunch Fletcher do yesterday ha?..........Joking aside he got injured so cant slate him at all, the most expensive Scot ever was he even playing??

Of course it is only early days!

One thing though, being an Aberdeen Fan from a Celtic Mad Family, I watched the Celtic game with my Dad and based on what I saw I can honestly say that if I was basing it purely on that one game then Griffiths is NOT the answer. Granted his pace and ball set up the winner so that ticks certain boxes I guess but and I have seen this with him before I do not think I have ever seen a more greedier striker than him. Now, of course you have to be greedy and single minded as a striker but my point is his level of greediness is that kind of immature petulant greed whereby he just keeps trying to do the same thing time and time again. I get he scored 40 goals last season fair does but really does he have to take a shot EVERY time he has the ball, there is nothing worse than a player taking an aimless shot and wasting it when there are 3/4 in better positions than him. I would understand this from a younger player but the guy is 25/26 now and played enough games to understand how it works. Do not get me wrong I am all for Strachan picking someone other than the carthorse Fletcher or the even bigger Carthorse Martin but unless Griffiths can learn to be a team player then he isn't one Ill be looking to clamour for again in a hurry.

Griffiths is an answer, but probably not to our question.  If we had a creative player who could pick gaps through defences, he'd be a lot more effective.  It's not really anything to do with being a team player, it's just him not really fitting in with how we play, or more accurately, us not having the players to make the most of him.  Even if we did though, I'm not sure he's really got the quality to be our starting striker.