Officer Barbrady Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 5 hours ago, forameus said: Yeah, suppose that's true. There's not some magic formula they've put into place. Wales have a handful of very good players that have come along at a time where the rest of their side is solid enough to do well. Northern Ireland are just solid, and benefited from a slightly easier qualifying group, then did themselves proud at the tournament. If we look at RoI in particular, there's only one thing they did that we should absolutely be doing. Winning games. They beat Georgia home and away, we didn't, and then they beat Germany, negating the good work we put in against them. Because of that, they got their success. Had we done what was expected and beaten Georgia home and away, and then closed out either of the Poland games, or the Ireland game, we might have been in their position being limited at a tournament. No tear-up needed. Some things might be able to be taken, but I'd be very wary of doing so. Every single team - club or international - is going to be different. We could see a team playing a limited but highly successful system, but is that then going to translate into success for us? We don't have the same players performing the same roles that they do. Even smaller things may not work. I'd always much rather we looked at what we had and built something from there, rather than look to other places for inspiration, then shoehorn it in. Northern Ireland didn't really fluke the group. You can perhaps say they fluked a decent draw, but you get what you're given. They deserved to be at the tournament. Personally, I think that's going to be our future. Getting all Nostradamus, I believe we'll miss out on the World Cup, probably with a similar group performance to the Euros one. Then we'll have a decent showing for the 2020 qualifying and end up at that tournament. Maybe we'll "fluke" it too, personally I don't really care as long as we make it. We're in danger of agreeing, here. But the sticking point for me has been, and remains, that if all we did differently to the South was fail to win, then the operative word has to be fail. You wouldn't live your life by comparisons, and neither should they be a focal point in dissecting results as a deflectory tactic....the others managed their games succesfully, and it wasn't apparent to me that they allowed their flaws to dictate their attitude to the games they played. Our whole system is based on the premise that we expect to concede, but do abaolutely f**k all about scoring enough goals, or attempting to, in order to deal with that outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 36 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said: We're in danger of agreeing, here. But the sticking point for me has been, and remains, that if all we did differently to the South was fail to win, then the operative word has to be fail. You wouldn't live your life by comparisons, and neither should they be a focal point in dissecting results as a deflectory tactic....the others managed their games succesfully, and it wasn't apparent to me that they allowed their flaws to dictate their attitude to the games they played. Our whole system is based on the premise that we expect to concede, but do abaolutely f**k all about scoring enough goals, or attempting to, in order to deal with that outcome. Stranger things have happened... I've never said we didn't fail, I'm just a bit more fine-grained about it than some. We only outright failed in Georgia. We were expected to win, and we didn't, not even coming close in the end. However, we didn't fail in Dublin, but with hindsight it looks as though we did. We didn't fail in Warsaw, although again, in hindsight getting three points there was definitely possible. The failure in Georgia meant things were then out of our hands, and results elsewhere meant we missed out, because Ireland had the belief to go on and beat Germany away. I think the last part is going a bit far though. I don't think our system is built expecting we're going to concede. We're built to try and take the pressure off an area of our side that is absolutely our weakest, but their not setting up saying "Aye, we'll expect to go one down, then we can really hurt them!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Officer Barbrady Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 You're not far from the truth.....climbing back into games is the sort of reactive, self-depracting mark of our 'heroes' of today. And, it's the case that it's because they expect to lose. Yet, Scotland have played their best competitive football in recent years from the very fact they conceded. Poland twice, Germany twice, Ireland away, Spain twice, going back as far as Italy twice and Germany in 2003, Scotland were extremely dangerous after going a goal (or two) down...yet, ironically further still, the idea that this can be achieved without the expected concessions isn't floated on any level whatsoever. The directive on this comes from the manager, who is clearly not doing his job at all if he can't improve on conceding, while building on the small success we've had in those games. It's easier for him to allow the world to see why he picks the teams he does, in the style he does, by being proved correct in.his public assessments that he thinks his players are shite. They're not, they're just mollycoddled and focussed on all the wrong things. Anything after going a goal down is increasingly seen as an end in itself, rather than a reason to sit and have a proper look at things. You mentioned that a tear-up isn't needed, and while i agree wholesale changes won't alter the personnel to any great degree, it's the small things that make the difference. We had no divine right to win as much as a fucking scratchcard in Tbilisi, because we got gubbed the last time we were there too....getting such a big thing so spectacularly wrong, the second time around, was a lot worse than losing a match. That should have been our Cup final, instead of any other match, at that stage, but we arrogantly assumed that every other diddy team thinks like we do, and are scared shitless of Watford wing-backs, Sunderland misfits and Everton benchwarmers. The greatest respect we can afford the Georgian people is to start pointing the finger at where we really went wrong, but we still bloody mess that up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny131 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 10 hours ago, 53_and_counting said: I honestly don't see anything to make me think that Scotland will qualify for a tournament by 2020 We are now too much in the failure camp, too many of they players are used to setting up to avoid defeat, so when the time comes that we need to win games we haven't the players or the system to get that win It isnt all strachans fault, its been a gradual process to this over the last decade at least, imo we'd need to agree to prettt much give up the next few qualifiers and attempt to change the mindset of the national team, even if we keep the same players, but at least try and get them believing that we can beat guys like Germany etc, other teams around our level dont show as much fear in games as we do Good post and describes our mentality down to a tee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny131 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 10 hours ago, forameus said: Yeah, suppose that's true. There's not some magic formula they've put into place. Wales have a handful of very good players that have come along at a time where the rest of their side is solid enough to do well. Northern Ireland are just solid, and benefited from a slightly easier qualifying group, then did themselves proud at the tournament. If we look at RoI in particular, there's only one thing they did that we should absolutely be doing. Winning games. They beat Georgia home and away, we didn't, and then they beat Germany, negating the good work we put in against them. Because of that, they got their success. Had we done what was expected and beaten Georgia home and away, and then closed out either of the Poland games, or the Ireland game, we might have been in their position being limited at a tournament. No tear-up needed. Some things might be able to be taken, but I'd be very wary of doing so. Every single team - club or international - is going to be different. We could see a team playing a limited but highly successful system, but is that then going to translate into success for us? We don't have the same players performing the same roles that they do. Even smaller things may not work. I'd always much rather we looked at what we had and built something from there, rather than look to other places for inspiration, then shoehorn it in. Northern Ireland didn't really fluke the group. You can perhaps say they fluked a decent draw, but you get what you're given. They deserved to be at the tournament. Personally, I think that's going to be our future. Getting all Nostradamus, I believe we'll miss out on the World Cup, probably with a similar group performance to the Euros one. Then we'll have a decent showing for the 2020 qualifying and end up at that tournament. Maybe we'll "fluke" it too, personally I don't really care as long as we make it. Not a bad post for a change, Wales, NI, to an extent ROI in certain games took the bull by the horns and just went for it with no fear and they qualified however 1 thing each of those teams had was a coach who completely believed in his team and was not afraid to say it either win lose or draw. Strachan has totally let his players down with his down beat attitude and belittling of our players being too wee or not having a Bale. That can't be good for morale and team cohesion which is paramount to succeed at international football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 5 hours ago, forameus said: Stranger things have happened... I've never said we didn't fail, I'm just a bit more fine-grained about it than some. We only outright failed in Georgia. We were expected to win, and we didn't, not even coming close in the end. However, we didn't fail in Dublin, but with hindsight it looks as though we did. We didn't fail in Warsaw, although again, in hindsight getting three points there was definitely possible. The failure in Georgia meant things were then out of our hands, and results elsewhere meant we missed out, because Ireland had the belief to go on and beat Germany away. I think the last part is going a bit far though. I don't think our system is built expecting we're going to concede. We're built to try and take the pressure off an area of our side that is absolutely our weakest, but their not setting up saying "Aye, we'll expect to go one down, then we can really hurt them!". the problem with the georgia game is that for once scotland were expected to perform, and failed miserably, we actually dont know how to take the game to an opponent, we rely on one tactic and one tactic and thats to simply try keep it tight and hope to nick a goal from something, when teams take the lead against us we are lost as our system isnt set up to chase a goal, and the players arent trained or mentally prepared to chase a game yes odd games we get back into it, like the germany game at hampden, but more often than not if scotland dont take the lead we look lost when chasing the game, and thats coming from years of setting up not to be beaten instead of setting up to win games imo instead of setting up a system to try and protect the weakest aspect of our side, and when that protection goes walkabouts (scott brown against germany and poland for example) we then have nothing to change our set up, we should maybe try forcing the opponents onto the back foot by pressuring them instead of inviting pressure onto us, force them into making mistakes instead of hoping we dont make any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Officer Barbrady Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 What the f**k have you been taking whilst watching games lately? Of course we're set up to chase games.....that, i agree, is the problem. I pointed out almost a dozen times where we did chase after conceding......if we didn't, we'd have a trail of four, five and six goal defeats to our name. This, however, isn't a tactic or strategy employed by the management....it's more a natural reaction which to me, belies the starting formation and mindset. If we were constantly being fisted then i'd say that it was definitely a player quality issue, and that not only should we expect to concede, but set ourselves up to avoid embarrassing results. The team aren't great, but they're nowhere near that fucking bad that we need to do it now. When we do climb back into games, it wrongly makes it look like the team has punched above its weight, in one guise or another. But, it serves the agendas of those who love rolling in mediocrity, excellently well, when the hard luck story is produced after competing perfectly well with supposedly superior teams, after it's too late to actually win the match. Even if we were blessed with better players, in my opinion the hard press and high line are imperative to any sort of success in international football. The crap served up in the summer, needs desperately challenged with new or recycled playing styles, and if Scotland adopted it, i don't believe we'd have much to lose....even with our current side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMjag Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Rhodes starts and stays on the bench for Boro's opening game, Negredo starting and scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Naismith starting for Norwich. Fletcher on the bench for Wednesday after recovering from a bad head injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 39 minutes ago, Firhill Road said: Rhodes starts and stays on the bench for Boro's opening game, Negredo starting and scoring. And Nugent brought on for Negredo... not the most auspicious start, especially if the Malta squad is to be named in a few weeks' time. Shame as he looked right on top of his game in pre-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest_Man#1 Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Unfortunately for him I can't see Rhodes playing much at all this season unless Negredo gets injured. I thought Rhodes looked good in pre-season but Negredo looked a class above today. The ball was glued to his feet/chest and some of the touches were sensational, so he definitely adds more to the team than Rhodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny131 Posted August 13, 2016 Author Share Posted August 13, 2016 1st game of the season Rhodes will get his chance soon enough, it is slightly worrying nugent got on before him as he is rank rotten these days. Negredo is a class act to be fair. Naismith looks a shadow of the player he was, does more time moaning so far in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F_T_Y Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Barring an injury to Negredo, looks like he could be just used as a sub, disappointing for him and Scotland as it seems Fletcher started on the bench for Wednesday yesterday as well. Only striker guaranteed to start at his club is Griffiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 And Nugent brought on for Negredo... not the most auspicious start, especially if the Malta squad is to be named in a few weeks' time. Shame as he looked right on top of his game in pre-season. The longer this goes in, the more it looks like Middlesbrough spent £9million for five goals intentionally. I can't imagine Rhodes being there in a month's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Barring an injury to Negredo, looks like he could be just used as a sub, disappointing for him and Scotland as it seems Fletcher started on the bench for Wednesday yesterday as well. Only striker guaranteed to start at his club is Griffiths. McCormack should be starting most weeks for Villa and Fletcher was recovering from a bad head injury (according to the Sky Sports commentator). I agree it's a tad concerning though.On the plus side I think Hearts is a great fit for Tony Watt, hopefully he has a good season there and can put himself in for contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig McCulloch Burley Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Matt Smith from Fulham Smith got 2 game and 2 goals of Fulham at championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Is Matt Smith not English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuckersloan Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Matt Smith is English but eligible to play for us because his dad is Scottish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kebab Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 McCormack should be starting most weeks for Villa and Fletcher was recovering from a bad head injury (according to the Sky Sports commentator). I agree it's a tad concerning though.On the plus side I think Hearts is a great fit for Tony Watt, hopefully he has a good season there and can put himself in for contention. Bad head injury!!!You're no kidding!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kebab Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Looks like he might have lost a few hair implants also!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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