Offensive Behaviour at Football Act cave in.

[Thumper]

Hard cases make bad law. Stuart Campbell has for once picked a reasonable hill to die on with this one. For all the multi-party anecdotes that are recited, or indeed made up, about the ills of this law, we're still waiting on a single case where anyone has plainly been unjustly convicted for a nonsense reason.

 

I'm not especially keen on the SNP's general level of authoritarianism. But a law being sloppily constructed such that Pinochet's Chile would use it to disappear anyone the state disagreed with is quite different from it existing in a small, liberal democracy, especially one with an almost unprecedentedly hostile free national media.

 

Truly, it seems, people don't care about human rights when it's people they don't like's human rights being interfered with.

 

I rather thought that the PnB consensus that yoons should all be put in concentration camps had already made this clear, champ.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Thumper

[williemillersmoustache]

This is just astonishing.

Truly, it seems, people don't care about human rights when it's people they don't like's human rights being interfered with.

 

I made it clear that I am happy for this to be applied to anyone, even pure as the driven snow Dandies.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

Saying that Scottish laws on what is and isn't culturally acceptable trump local laws thousands of miles from Scotland is appalling.

 

In the same way it would be appalling if Saudi Arabia decided they could arrest Saudi residents who visited gay clubs on holiday in London.

 

What Scotland thinks is unacceptable in terms of behaviour should only apply between Shetland and Gretna. Outside of that, you conform to whatever rules are set in that jurisdiction. You can't criminalise folk for doing things that are legal in the places that they're doing it. Otherwise half of the British tourists who visit Amsterdam would be arrested as soon as they got home.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Carl Cort's Hamstring

[Thumper]

Saying that Scottish laws on what is and isn't culturally acceptable trump local laws thousands of miles from Scotland is appalling.

 

In the same way it would be appalling if Saudi Arabia decided they could arrest Saudi residents who visited gay clubs on holiday in London.

 

Excellent use of examples. The United States and Saudi Arabia being two countries known around the world for their awesome tolerance of speech the state doesn't like, particularly of the sort that might occasionally see some less enlightened countries indulge in a bit of extrajudicial killing.

 

But yeah, a law that stops people from singing The Billy Boys. Definitely one hop away from being North Korea now.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

Excellent use of examples. The United States and Saudi Arabia being two countries known around the world for their awesome tolerance of speech the state doesn't like, particularly of the sort that might occasionally see some less enlightened countries indulge in a bit of extrajudicial killing.

 

But yeah, a law that stops people from singing The Billy Boys. Definitely one hop away from being North Korea now.

 

The USA has a far higher tolerance of hate speech than we do...

[williemillersmoustache]

These aren't invalid points but I think the example you used is extreme.  In all of this you have to put a level of trust in who is applying the law, I trust the fuzz to a tolerably high degree, I trust the current Scottish government and I don't see this as a massive infringement of any ones rights. 

[HaikuHibee]

Yes, Haiku, victims. You're a tier two oppressor. Horrible bigot.

 

So you've not been then. Instead we get this pish. Move on Ad Lib, we both know you're a clueless c**t.

Edited May 17, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[Ad Lib]

we're still waiting on a single case where anyone has plainly been unjustly convicted for a nonsense reason.

Student convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws but sheriff says he should not have been dragged into court

 

Richmond was arrested after police heard him singing "F*** your Pope and f*** your Queen" as Partick Thistle played Celtic at Firhill in October.

Thistle fans sing the song to distance themselves from Rangers and Celtic.

At Glasgow Sheriff Court, he was found guilty by Sheriff Norman Ritchie QC of behaviour likely to incite public disorder by singing sectarian and offensive remarks.

But he told the teenager: "You are not the sort of person who creates the problem and needs this legislation."

"Because of its vagueness, you can have a situation theoretically where somebody is saying something which is, on the face of it, offensive – it doesn’t have to be sectarian or racist and people do shout things at football matches – so there’s a potential there for criminalising football fans for what they have been doing for the past 150 years.

"These cases seem to be reflecting the concern a lot of lawyers – and not just defence lawyers but sheriffs as well – are having regarding this legislation.

"What it really seems to be doing is focusing on football behaviour as opposed to what many people see

as the real concern, which is sectarianism in Scotland.

"It seems we are criminalising people who are letting off steam in a relatively secure environment."

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

These aren't invalid points but I think the example you used is extreme.  In all of this you have to put a level of trust in who is applying the law, I trust the fuzz to a tolerably high degree, I trust the current Scottish government and I don't see this as a massive infringement of any ones rights. 

 

There is certainly an element to how much you trust the authorities involved in a lot of this. Any law on what constitutes hatred or sectarianism relies on someone exercising common sense somewhere down the line.

 

For me though, while the rest of the law is stupid, the bit which allows fans to be charged with things they've done outside Scotland is genuinely outrageous. It is taking Scottish cultural norms, and saying that they supersede the laws of the land where-ever the fan happens to be.

• Britain has lower drinking ages and lower ages of consent than most American states. An American tourist should be able to act within those laws without worrying about the laws of their home state.
• The Irish constitution makes it clear that abortion is unconstitutional. That's for them to sort out, but they absolutely shouldn't be able to persecute women who come to Britain for treatment.
• England has a higher drink drive limit that Scotland. A Scottish driver who is on holiday in Cornwall shouldn't come under Scottish jurisdiction if they have a glass of wine with their dinner before driving back to the hotel.

America has more tolerant freedom of speech laws than Britain. A Scottish football fan singing the Billy Boys (however horrible a song it is) should not be able to be charged by Scottish courts if he's singing it in New York.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Carl Cort's Hamstring

[williemillersmoustache]

Again, i think the examples you use are extreme but I take your point. The application of judgement in all this has been sorely lacking from the debate. I'd hope that if this was used to punish an action abroad it would be of an extreme enough nature in itself for prosecution to be in the public interest. Not simply a single act filmed by the the angry bear watching it on TV. 

[HaikuHibee]

The example Ad Lib used actually shows the courts doing their job. The bit he missed out from the Record says he was discharged without a conviction. He should not have been arrested, but at least the judge recognised that fact. Even the judge recognises why the act is there unlike some twats.

Edited May 17, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

The example Ad Lib used actually shows the courts doing their job. The bit he missed out from the Record says he was discharged without a conviction. He should not have been arrested, but at least the judge recognised that fact. Even the judge recognises why the act is there unlike some twats.

 

They arrested one teenager out of a crowd of 3000, for singing someone that no-one who knows anything about Scottish football could possibly think was sectarian. He then had 3 months with the threat of a court case hanging over his head before it was rightly chucked out.

 

It is literally the perfect example of why this law is complete b*llocks. I feel like people are must be being deliberately contrary now, so I'm off to bed.

[HaikuHibee]

They arrested one teenager out of a crowd of 3000, for singing someone that no-one who knows anything about Scottish football could possibly think was sectarian. He then had 3 months with the threat of a court case hanging over his head before it was rightly chucked out.

It is literally the perfect example of why this law is complete b*llocks. I feel like people are must be being deliberately contrary now, so I'm off to bed.

I still blame the Old Firm for this situation as much as, if not more so, than the police.

[Yank Mike]

That I'd rather wear a turban than a rose chant sounds top notch.

 

No it wouldn't. Anyone that has been to an MLS game will have heard much more cringeworthy chants.

That was the joke. That rewrite of Billy Boys is USA soccer level cringe.

[ScotSquid]

Utterly laughable how songs expressing hatred by one group of fans is deemed worthy of criminal sanction by posters on here but they quickly change their tune when it's songs sung by fans they like which express hatred.

Indeed. Which is why I brought out this hypocrisy.

Its no surprise at all that the deeply offended idiot types like Haiku are suddenly going down the 'eh it's banter' route, when songs which can absolutely fall foul of this very same act are mentioned. Because they fall within the ambit of what they consider to be absolutely fine, even though abhorrent to others.

Very amusing.

[Yank Mike]

Ad lib is doing the Lord's work here. Good luck trying to hold off the barbarians at the gates of freedom.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Yank Mike

[mjw]

When the f**k is this turban song getting sung?

I've never heard it at any Scotland game.

[Thumper]

Nobody wants the law only applied to a select group of people. It is, however, the case that fewer Dumbarton and Stirling Albion fans can be found singing The Billy Boys on an average Saturday afternoon than fans of certain other teams.

[jester]

 

Student convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws but sheriff says he should not have been dragged into court

 

 

Much like the beloved breach of the peace charge which is applied by the police as a catch all charge then? 

[Ad Lib]

They arrested one teenager out of a crowd of 3000, for singing someone that no-one who knows anything about Scottish football could possibly think was sectarian. He then had 3 months with the threat of a court case hanging over his head before it was rightly chucked out.

It is literally the perfect example of why this law is complete b*llocks. I feel like people are must be being deliberately contrary now, so I'm off to bed.

It's worth pointing out here that if law relies on judges exercising discretion and issuing absolute discharges after people have been prosecuted and convicted of offences that's an indication of a dysfunctional legal framework. It's a perfect example of what the legal theorists among us would call Hart's pathology of law.