Offensive Behaviour at Football Act cave in.

[Ad Lib]

Much like the beloved breach of the peace charge which is applied by the police as a catch all charge then?

You're right. Breach of the peace has severe rule of law problems. It's scope should be narrowed significantly.

[HaikuHibee]

Indeed. Which is why I brought out this hypocrisy.

Its no surprise at all that the deeply offended idiot types like Haiku are suddenly going down the 'eh it's banter' route, when songs which can absolutely fall foul of this very same act are mentioned. Because they fall within the ambit of what they consider to be absolutely fine, even though abhorrent to others.

Very amusing.

It is pretty fucking stupid argument since you are effectively saying all international football should be banned if sectarianism is banned from football grounds. Even a judge, who does not agree with the wording of this act, recognises why it is there and who it is designed to catch. Of course there is downsides and the act might be improved, but Old Firm ruined many aspects of the game in Scotland. This is just another example of that. Edited May 18, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[Tio Pepe]

You're right. Breach of the peace has severe rule of law problems. It's scope should be narrowed significantly.

It should be removed from Statute. It is used (or misused) to convict were normal standards of proof for the actual offence cannot be met and also to criminalise people who have done nothing other than annoy a police officer.

[ScotSquid]

It is pretty fucking stupid argument since you are effectively saying all international football should be banned if sectarianism is banned from football grounds.

You can't actually be this stupid can you?

Do you know what the name of this act is?

[HaikuHibee]

You can't actually be this stupid can you?

Do you know what the name of this act is?

Look at what the judge said in a case where a student probably did sing something 'offensive'. Ad Lib is actually right in saying it's bad that a judge's discretion is needed or the police to show some common sense. I'd still prefer an amended act or some sanction enforceable through the law to clamp down on sectarianism. Is the act better than nothing? Probably imo.

[Ad Lib]

It is pretty fucking stupid argument since you are effectively saying all international football should be banned if sectarianism is banned from football grounds. Even a judge, who does not agree with the wording of this act, recognises why it is there and who it is designed to catch. Of course there is downsides and the act might be improved, but Old Firm ruined many aspects of the game in Scotland. This is just another example of that.

You're a complete and utter moron. No one is saying "all international football should be banned". We are pointing out that, if you want to be consistent, and support the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act, you have to acknowledge that it treats as equally criminal as singing The Sash, songs you consider to be "a bit of banter". There is no principled distinction between banning Scottish fans from singing "if you hate the fucking English clap your hands" and banning Rangers fans from singing "we're up to our knees in ****** blood". Both, objectively, constitute hate speech and discrimination against a group based on protected characteristics.

One can completely consistently say that the Old Firm ruins Scottish football and also maintain either that criminalisation of offensive expression is wrong, or less radically that the manner in which the OBAFATCSA seeks to criminalise offensive expression is appallingly broad, indiscriminate in what it criminalises yet also discriminates against football fans rather than all people who commit sectarian speech, and that the problem can be just as well dealt with either with the existing breach of the peace law or if anything by a more exacting and narrower breach of the peace law.

It should be removed from Statute. It is used (or misused) to convict were normal standards of proof for the actual offence cannot be met and also to criminalise people who have done nothing other than annoy a police officer.

 

Breach of the peace is actually based in common law in Scotland and not statute.

 

Look at what the judge said in a case where a student probably did sing something 'offensive'. Ad Lib is actually right in saying it's bad that a judge's discretion is needed or the police to show some common sense. I'd still prefer an amended act or some sanction enforceable through the law to clamp down on sectarianism. Is the act better than nothing? Probably imo.

Football fans should be allowed to be offensive. Sometimes the referee really is a w****r. If you want to eliminate sectarian singing from football matches, lean on the SFA and SPFL or boycott.

You haven't provided a single positive justification for a criminal law extending beyond aggravated breach of the peace, or incitement of breach of the peace.

[The_Kincardine]

Saying that Scottish laws on what is and isn't culturally acceptable trump local laws thousands of miles from Scotland is appalling.

On the issue of football song/chants then yes.  You are absolutely right.  Where, "Scottish laws on what is and isn't culturally acceptable SHOULD trump local laws thousands of miles from Scotland" is in the area of sex tourism and I'm perfectly happy for the arm of Police Scotland to bring some folk to book.

 

OK so it's off topic but a healthy corrective to the notion we can 'do anything abroad' may be useful.

[Mortar Bored]

[quote name="Ad Lib" post="10467356" timestamp="

Breach of the peace is actually based in common law in Scotland and not statute.

Never having studied law, what is the difference between common law & statute?

Apologies for this disaster of a post, can't quote properly on this phone....

Edited May 18, 2016 by Mortar Bored

[The_Kincardine]

Never having studied law, what is the difference between common law & statute?

Hard to condense this to a sentence or two but it's along the lines of statute is prescriptive and common law is descriptive.  So under statute law you cannot cross the road unless there's a green man.  If you do so then you're in error whatever the circumstances. 

 

Under common law you can cross the road at any time but you may make an arse of yourself and get lifted.  The court can then decide, based on circumstance and precedent, if you're a legally culpable arse.

Edited May 18, 2016 by The_Kincardine

[HaikuHibee]

You're a complete and utter moron. No one is saying "all international football should be banned". We are pointing out that, if you want to be consistent, and support the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act, you have to acknowledge that it treats as equally criminal as singing The Sash, songs you consider to be "a bit of banter". There is no principled distinction between banning Scottish fans from singing "if you hate the fucking English clap your hands" and banning Rangers fans from singing "we're up to our knees in ****** blood". Both, objectively, constitute hate speech and discrimination against a group based on protected characteristics.

One can completely consistently say that the Old Firm ruins Scottish football and also maintain either that criminalisation of offensive expression is wrong, or less radically that the manner in which the OBAFATCSA seeks to criminalise offensive expression is appallingly broad, indiscriminate in what it criminalises yet also discriminates against football fans rather than all people who commit sectarian speech, and that the problem can be just as well dealt with either with the existing breach of the peace law or if anything by a more exacting and narrower breach of the peace law.

 

Breach of the peace is actually based in common law in Scotland and not statute.

 

Football fans should be allowed to be offensive. Sometimes the referee really is a w****r. If you want to eliminate sectarian singing from football matches, lean on the SFA and SPFL or boycott.

You haven't provided a single positive justification for a criminal law extending beyond aggravated breach of the peace, or incitement of breach of the peace.

 

 

 

I don't need to provide an example. The SFA, Rangers and Celtic forced this issue to become a Police matter. The Police requested this act. There is a whole host of reasons why Old Firm sectarianism would not be covered by breach of the peace (penalties being a major factor). There are issues whether the acts being described would (or should) be covered by existing hate crime legislation, which numerous other people have already argued on here and why the police do not believe that law is appropriate.

 

I freely admit Scotland fans could run foul of the Act as much as a Rangers fan if they are careless or unlucky. I blame the Old Firm for that situation. The only case you have provided that was an outrage was a case that was thrown out by a judge without a conviction. That judge has made pretty clear what the act is designed to solve. It is not designed to combat offensive banter.

 

This is just circular. I have said what I think, you have presented a series of arguments now. The whole libertarian crusade has now changed into "well Scotland fans support Scotland and don't like the England team" because a Rangers fan wants to excuse  his team's bigotry. So you now believe supporting Scotland and not England is the equivalent of Old Firm bigotry. You can beat about the bush, but as I said before any non-Old Firm fan denying Old Firm bigotry is a problem to be sorted should be ashamed of themselves. Equating that to the Tartan Army is a real stretch that I don't think you believe.

Edited May 18, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[Tory]

The difference between me calling a Morton fan a Greenock b'stard or a Morton fan calling me a Paisley b'stard is after the game it's all over and done with.

On the day of Old Firm games the bile spills into the pubs and clubs all over the country and a wives all over the country walk into countless doors.

 

 

Aye of course you do and of course it does. 

 

See the morons above, they are far worse than me singing a song let me tell you.

[Tory]

If you seriously think they are singing about English people, you are a drooling, ignorant c**t. I'll admit, much less of a c**t than the opportunistic bigot apologists like Ad Lib. But it is pretty unbelievable that Rangers fans can start pointing the finger at Scotland fans to excuse their ritualistic cringeworthy bigotry when they've humiliated themselves abroad on oh so many occasions.

 

Who are they singing about then?    

[HaikuHibee]

Who are they singing about then?    

 

When they sing about Diego Maradona putting "the English out", they're not talking about the fucking English polity.

Edited May 18, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[Mortar Bored]

Hard to condense this to a sentence or two but it's along the lines of statute is prescriptive and common law is descriptive. So under statute law you cannot cross the road unless there's a green man. If you do so then you're in error whatever the circumstances.

Under common law you can cross the road at any time but you may make an arse of yourself and get lifted. The court can then decide, based on circumstance and precedent, if you're a legally culpable arse.

Thanks, much appreciated.

It is the case that common & statute law can be altered at government level though?

[The_Kincardine]

I don't need to provide an example. The SFA, Rangers and Celtic forced this issue to become a Police matter.

 

This, though, is not the issue.  You are doing the usual diddy thing of thinking this is all about The OF singing naughty songs.  It isn't.  It's a piece of legislation which treat football fans differently from fans of other sports and which seeks to convict folk on a crime that may never have taken place.

 

Its basis is both flawed and pernicious.

 

I'm all for a robust approach to sectarianism but this isn;t the act for it.  The only folk who seem to support it either think it's about naughty songs or who think, "f**k them, I'm a good guy".

[The_Kincardine]

Thanks, much appreciated.

It is the case that common & statute law can be altered at government level though?

Depends on one's constitutional settlement/polity.  English law is almost entirely common law/case law.  Scots law is a blend.

[Mortar Bored]

Depends on one's constitutional settlement/polity. English law is almost entirely common law/case law. Scots law is a blend.

So, if Holyrood saw fit, they can repeal / improve common law as much as they can statute law?

Thanks again.

[Tory]

When they sing about Diego Maradona putting "the English out", they're not talking about the fucking English polity.

 

Singing a song about knocking England out a tournament is a bit different from singing a song about hating the English surely?  For what it's worth, you should be allowed to sing whatever you want following Scotland.  It's ridiculous all this drama being brought on by the singing of songs at a game of football.

 

Also, your continuous whining that this law is the Old Firms fault and everything that is wrong with Scottish football falls at the feet of Rangers or Celtic is equally as ridiculous.  It was only a few weeks ago I was being told by a half empty Easter Road to "Go home ya ****".  Sectarianism isn't just an Old Firm problem and you know it. 

[invergowrie arab]

So, if Holyrood saw fit, they can repeal / improve common law as much as they can statute law?

Thanks again.

The Government can not touch common law as such but where they feel common law does not necessarily meet the needs of whatever they are trying to achieve they can legislate to create a specific offence or defence.

Of course statute can not possibly cover every eventuality to often the statutory offences may still be shaped by common law.

Edited May 18, 2016 by invergowrie arab

[AUFC90]

It was only a few weeks ago I was being told by a half empty Easter Road to "Go home ya ****". Sectarianism isn't just an Old Firm

problem and you know it.

That word isn't sectarian. It only got banned after years of Rangers fannies crying about it. Ayr sang it the last time your lot visisted and it's a fairly large stretch to call Ayr fans sectarian. It simply means Rangers fan.