Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit

[Ira Gaines]

That reads as if suggesting that no labour leader could ever be electable so there's no point in even trying to win and Labour should instead become a large club for self righteous people to moan about what's going on.

If that's your logic for wanting Corbyn then it's at least logically consistent

Corbyn winning is about a bigger picture for me. Earlier today I admitted that Corbyn might not be the best leader but it could at least be the beginning of a shift for them. That's the hope at least. An ineffective Labour opposition isn't much use for me. I'd actually like a Labour party that gives me options on who to vote for. Right now I feel that I only have one and I don't really want that to be the case.

[pandarilla]

I think Corbyn has zero chance of ever winning a general election. Because of that, I believe his leadership will be utterly pointless.

The strategy should be all out anti austerity coalition - with a promise to get rid of fptp (with a half decent option this time).

Labour will need to shake things up good and proper as corbyn so far hasn't looked even remotely threatening to the status quo.

[John Lambies Doos]

I doubt it. Ultimately what the moderates want is power so we can actually implement socialist policies. Splitting the party would just make this even more difficult. A lot of the problem we have with the left of the party is that they would prefer the moral purity of being right than making the difficult decisions which allows us power. By splitting the moderates would be doing the exact same thing.

Alistair Campbell seems to think there will be. That if Corbyn gets the nod; the labour party will split into two parties..
In essence a hard line left party (nationalising everything ) and a moderate tory lite version?

[BerwickMad]

Why does this shite continue when nobody else will either? Stop pretending it's about being electable. It's transparent.

That's exactly what it's about for me. I don't think Labour are close to being electable at the moment, but I'd at least like to see them heading in the right direction, not looking inwards and preaching to the electorate.

I don't even need to just look at the national trends to be concerned. I just need to look at the people I know. The ONLY people I know who are convinced by Corbyn are in my branch. The converted. I know quite a few people however who have a passing interest in politics, who would usually be sympathetic to Labour but are totally turned off by him. Most people are in the centre and don't talk about politics all day.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that he's convinced anyone I know to vote Labour. I know plenty of people who won't vote Labour now.

[JMDP]

I think Corbyn has zero chance of ever winning a general election. Because of that, I believe his leadership will be utterly pointless.

Would you prefer David miliband in charge, signing extraordinary rendition noticed? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[BerwickMad]

Would you prefer David miliband in charge, signing extraordinary rendition noticed? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Than the Tories? Yes.

[John Lambies Doos]

Than the Tories? Yes.

I struggle to see the difference between blarite labour and the torys tbh.

[BerwickMad]

I struggle to see the difference between blarite labour and the torys tbh.

Banning new grammar schools, increased spending on public services, school building, slashed hospital waiting times, decreasing pensioner poverty, winter fuel payments up, free tv licences for over 75s, more police, more nurses, more doctors, more teachers, paternity leave for dads, the minimum wage, gift aid, Sure Start, tax credits, scrapping section 28, brought millions of social housing homes up to 21st century standard, banned fox hunting, banned fur farming.

It will be interesting to see what left of centre policies Jeremy Corbyn achieves for the country as leader of the Labour Party.

[JMDP]

Than the Tories? Yes.

That wasn't the question. Are you comfortable with a leader who is happy to have innocent people tortured? Is that labour values?

[BerwickMad]

That wasn't the question. Are you comfortable with a leader who is happy to have innocent people tortured? Is that labour values?

No im not. I'm not comfortable having a leader who can't win either, as the Tories will just do more and worse. If you're asking me to defend everything a politician does, I'm never going to do that. However i believe David Miliband would have more chance of beating the Tories and delivering more change that I agree with. It's pretty simple really. Would I have preferred Hague over Blair, no. Did I agree with the Iraq War, no. Would I prefer a Labour leader with a chance of winning that I don't always agree with, yes, certainly compared to Corbyn who can't win consigning us to a decade of Theresa May.

[JMDP]

No im not. I'm not comfortable having a leader who can't win either, as the Tories will just do more and worse. If you're asking me to defend everything a politician does, I'm never going to do that. However i believe David Miliband would have more chance of beating the Tories and delivering more change that I agree with. It's pretty simple really. Would I have preferred Hague over Blair, no. Did I agree with the Iraq War, no. Would I prefer a Labour leader with a chance of winning that I don't always agree with, yes, certainly compared to Corbyn who can't win consigning us to a decade of Theresa May.

Again, that wasn't the question and a ludicrous defence of something that wasn't asked. You would clearly prefer a leader who endorses torture, was complicit in the launching of a disastrous war, bought into the PFI scheme wholeheartedly, voted for top up fees and academisation of schools, is so morally bereft that he takes huge salaries from refugee projects, 28 detention without charge? That's what you want?

You would vote for torture because there is a (completely unproven) better chance you might win. Shameful.

[strichener]

Banning new grammar schools, increased spending on public services, school building, slashed hospital waiting times, decreasing pensioner poverty, winter fuel payments up, free tv licences for over 75s, more police, more nurses, more doctors, more teachers, paternity leave for dads, the minimum wage, gift aid, Sure Start, tax credits, scrapping section 28, brought millions of social housing homes up to 21st century standard, banned fox hunting, banned fur farming.

It will be interesting to see what left of centre policies Jeremy Corbyn achieves for the country as leader of the Labour Party.

I think you had better go back and check your history. Gift aid was in place long before a Labour Government and I am not sure that the introduction of non-means tested pensioner benefits is something that we should be encouraging when it happens at a time of increasing government debt. Paternity leave was the implementation of an EU directive. Schools were built using private money and are still being paid for now...

Makes a fair dent in your list of Blair's achievements. The benefits of otherwise of the others are probably just as blurred.

[BerwickMad]

EMA, there's another.

[dorlomin]

44 minutes ago, JMDP said:

 

That wasn't the question. Are you comfortable with a leader who is happy to have innocent people tortured? Is that labour values?

 

Quote

Zahra "Ziba" Kazemi-Ahmadabadi (زهرا کاظمی احمدآبادی in Persian) (1948 – July 11, 2003) was an Iranian-Canadian freelance photographer, who according to the medical examiner was raped, tortured and killed by Iranian officials following her arrest in Iran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi

And Saint Jeremy was perfectly happy enough with this to take money from the Iranian governments TV station. 

Thing with being all sanctimonious, it can work two ways.  

Quote

 

Bahari stated he confessed for television after physical and psychological torture. He was held in solitary confinement, interrogated daily (either blindfolded or made to face away from his interrogator),[23] threatened with execution, and repeatedly slapped, kicked, punched, and hit with a belt by his interrogator.[28] Bahari's interrogator told him they knew he (Bahari) "was working for four different intelligence agencies: the CIA, Mossad, MI6 and Newsweek." Bahari believes it was desperation to find "any evidence to prove I was a spy" that led his captors to believe his providing an American TV personality with a list of Iranians they could talk to in Iran, was evidence of his being a spy. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maziar_Bahari

 

Iran's Ruthless repression of the Bahai seem something you and Saint Jezza endorse or are entirely sanguine with. Both your morals are selective and your 'outrage' manufactured. 

Not to mention his friends like Hamas, Hezb'allah and the Provisional IRA. None of whom have hurt a fly or something. 

As you cannot argue policy you have gone for "argumentum ad hominem". But now you will bluster and throw tantrums trying to distract from your boys smirking complicity on Iranian TV. 

[strichener]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maziar_Bahari

 

Iran's Ruthless repression of the Bahai seem something you and Saint Jezza endorse or are entirely sanguine with. Both your morals are selective and your 'outrage' manufactured. 

Not to mention his friends like Hamas, Hezb'allah and the Provisional IRA. None of whom have hurt a fly or something. 

As you cannot argue policy you have gone for "argumentum ad hominem". But now you will bluster and throw tantrums trying to distract from your boys smirking complicity on Iranian TV. 

What a shambles. You are comparing someone allegedly supporting inhumane causes with some that was actually complicit in abduction and torture. Something that they lied about and the later admitted "was a mistake". The two are nowhere near comparable. Of course I await your next trawling of Wikipedia to provide irrefutable evidence that Corbyn actually knee-capped some proddie in NI as initiation into the provos.[emoji23]

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

I struggle to see the difference between blarite labour and the torys tbh.

 

I think there is a difference and a Blairite type Labour government would be a better option than a Tory one.

However it saddens me that some folk appear to think the option is only one or the other, I believe people could be won over to support a more radical, genuinely left-of-centre Labour agenda.  Only by purging the Party of the right-wing careerists is there any chance of the unity required to promote such an agenda, that is the best chance Labour has.

For those sceptical of the U.K. public supporting a radical agenda you only need to look at the man who should have been the Democratic candidate for president.  Massive support for someone widely described as a socialist, almost a term of insult in U.S. politics.

[dorlomin]

7 minutes ago, strichener said:

What a shambles. You are comparing someone allegedly supporting inhumane causes 

Alleged?

You claim your boy is morally perfect. You seem rather unhappy with being reminded of the kind of low life he has called his friends, taken money from and spoken at their events. 

Bit late to be trying to introduce the nuance as a defence for our perfect hero, Saint Jeremy.  

[dorlomin]

Quote

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects  Sep 11
On the political spectrum, Britons identify as:
Left wing: 10%
Centre left: 15%
Centre: 45%
Centre right: 17%
Right wing: 13%
(via Opinium)

Where oh where are the votes? Surely to the far left?

[dorlomin]

Quote

 

Party		Leader	MPs			Votes
				Of total			Of total
Conservative Party		David Cameron	330	50.8%	330 / 650	11,300,109	36.8%
Labour Party		Ed Miliband	232	35.7%	232 / 650	9,347,324	30.5%
Scottish National Party		Nicola Sturgeon	56	8.6%	56 / 650	1,454,436	4.7%
Liberal Democrats		Nick Clegg	8	1.2%	8 / 650	2,415,862	7.9%
Democratic Unionist Party		Peter Robinson	8	1.2%	8 / 650	184,260	0.6%
Sinn Féin		Gerry Adams	4	0.6%	4 / 650	176,232	0.6%
Plaid Cymru		Leanne Wood	3	0.5%	3 / 650	181,704	0.6%
Social Democratic & Labour Party		Alasdair McDonnell	3	0.5%	3 / 650	99,809	0.3%
Ulster Unionist Party		Mike Nesbitt	2	0.3%	2 / 650	114,935	0.4%
UK Independence Party		Nigel Farage	1	0.2%	1 / 650	3,881,099	12.7%
Green Party		Natalie Bennett	1	0.2%	1 / 650	1,157,613	3.8%
S

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015

 

Labour need about 1 million who voted tory to switch, 2 million who voted for other parties or did not vote to switch with no swing to tory to counter that. Or a combination of those. They need to be disproportionately in marginal constituencies which are clustered in smaller midland towns or prosperous suburbs of large cities. 

 

The people on this thread do not count for a pitcher of spit. Me included, we are tribal and set in our ways. Its the non tribal types who would only skim a politics forum once a week at best who will decide the next election (mostly those skimming Villa, Brum, Cov type forums rather that P&B)

[strichener]

Alleged?

You claim your boy is morally perfect. You seem rather unhappy with being reminded of the kind of low life he has called his friends, taken money from and spoken at their events. 

Bit late to be trying to introduce the nuance as a defence for our perfect hero, Saint Jeremy.  

"My boy", "morally perfect". More made up nonsense from you.

Nuance is not being introduced, there is no comparison between attending events and being directly involved in facilitating torture.