Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

3 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Even as a labour Party member, I agree that a labour Government reliant on other parties would be for the best in the short/medium term - the obvious cancdidates being the SNP, as no other party would gain a meaningful number of seats and have a sufficient overlap of ideology. With the current brexit shambles resolved, the next Government could concentrate on fixing the domestic issues which are doing even more to break the country than May's shot at a "legacy".

A subsequent election, after the five-year term, would see the electorate judging Labour on how they've tried to repair the country, the SNP with how well they've handled being a minor partner in UK National Government (I'm guessing a fúckload better than the Libdems when given a similar role), and whatever's left of the right wing parties on whether they actually care more for the plebs than they do for their own bank accounts. As a fair number of Tory supporters will have seen their "investments" (or houses, as the rest of us call them) plummet in value by then, it will be much harder for the Tories to convince even the thickest, most racist among the electorate that another bunch of Public School arseholes would be the answer to their problems, as most of the working class voters they rely on will only be "alright, Jack" by the implementation, easily proved, of a Labour-led government's policies. I feel that would be the Election which cements Labour as the Party of Government for a while. I also think it would see the agreement for a second Independence referendum - this time run knowing that the rUK would be looking to grow together with an Independent Scotland.

Their are massive demographic and attitudinal shifts going on in Britain, and the Tories have failed to take note of them*. Unfortunately for them, if you ignore an approaching tsunami, you're still going to drown.

*Not just the Tories, but their apologists in the Media.

The prospect of a Labour government propped up by the SNP is horrific. Would the English voter be ready to let a Scottish party with no interest in English matters effectively run the country as they would surely hold Labour to hostage? The SNP would sooner cut the throat of a Labour government to get what that want. A Scottish DUP, if you wish. I would have no truck with them.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

7 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

The prospect of a Labour government propped up by the SNP is horrific. Would the English voter be ready to let a Scottish party with no interest in English matters effectively run the country as they would surely hold Labour to hostage? The SNP would sooner cut the throat of a Labour government to get what that want. A Scottish DUP, if you wish. I would have no truck with them.

I hate to go all jo Cox on you, but I reckon they have more in common than divisions. I also think that, when the time comes, Labour will be more amenable to dealing with an Independent Scotland. Certainly, I think that since the "lurch towards the extreme left", the Labour Party are far more open to collaboration, be it with Scotland or, given the chance, the EU. Certainly more so than the Little Englanders who seem content to watch these islands burn if Johnny Foreigner won't fall into line.

I certainly wouldn't mention the SNP in the same breath as the (Takes deep breath) DUP. One is a modern progressive party dedicated to a legitimate ai while trying to "get on with the Day Job, the other is a load of bigots unconcerned with the governance of their province, steered by religious bigotry more suited to the eighteenth century. How Robbie Coltrane ever ended up as their leader is beyond me.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

The prospect of a Labour government propped up by the SNP is horrific. Would the English voter be ready to let a Scottish party with no interest in English matters effectively run the country as they would surely hold Labour to hostage? The SNP would sooner cut the throat of a Labour government to get what that want. A Scottish DUP, if you wish. I would have no truck with them.

So.

Scotland subject to the laws of Tory governments that Scotland hasn’t voted for = good.

England subject to laws of Labour government supported by a political party that England hasn’t voted for = bad.

Oh the irony.

Of course there is a way to ensure that the people of Scotland have no say in how England is governed.

 

 

[Ira Gaines]

The sheer panic the SNP and Scottish independence brings up in the staunchest of unionists is pretty fucking funny tbh. These people are to be pitied more than they are to be mocked.

[Granny Danger]

May specifically attacking Blair’s intervention whilst ignoring mouthy Tory grandees.  I wonder why?

Spoiler

Actually I know why.

 

[Bedford White]

8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Corbyn and McDonnell's crawling for the DUP's support has one of the most sickening things about the whole episode. The backstop, if it ever happened, would mean the entire UK would stay in the Customs Union and Single Market without paying a penny to the EU or having freedom of movement. Labour's reaction to it has been as cynical as their 6 rules, or Corbyn's claim that he can take the UK out of the EU without rule taking ,freedom of movement, getting rid of state subsidy rules and get a better deal than May. I'm beginning to think he wants a hard Brexit so he can try to take over the wreckage. 

How is it crawling for DUP support? Is it looking for a coalition Or confidence and supply agreement? Or are they sounding out all political parties and no doubt individual MPs (yes including those that belong to ERG) on their likelihood to support a VONC in parliament. The government cannot get its core manifesto policy through the house, the EU can't budge due to May's own red lines. In these circumstances the government should fall and a VONC is the process for this.  The Labour Party would be amateurish not to sound out the DUP the same way as Thatcher sounded out The UUP, Liberals and SNP before bringing down Callaghan in 1979.

 

[Granny Danger]

@welshbairn is the only person who thinks May’s deal is good.  Even May realised that it’s shite.

 

[ICTJohnboy]

37 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

@welshbairn is the only person who thinks May’s deal is good.  Even May realised that it’s shite.

 

It would be preferable to a No Deal.

[welshbairn]

45 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

@welshbairn is the only person who thinks May’s deal is good.  Even May realised that it’s shite.

 

All it does is kick the decision down the road. There are far worse alternatives available. Labour's 6 tests make it clear that whatever deal May makes they will vote against it. That could lead to a hard brexit. As could another referendum if the result goes the wrong way. As could a General Election with a Brexiteer led Tory party winning. May's deal means another 3 years to sort it out while we carry on as normal.

Edited December 16, 2018 by welshbairn

[Granny Danger]

10 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

All it does is kick the decision down the road. There are far worse alternatives available. Labour's 6 tests make it clear that whatever deal May makes they will vote against it. That could lead to a hard brexit. As could another referendum if the result goes the wrong way. As could a General Election with a Brexiteer led Tory party winning. May's deal means another 3 years to sort it out while we carry on as normal.

It’s not ‘as normal’ it’s wothout a voice.  I prefer a second referendum (though my first choice is unilateral withdrawal of Article 50).

15 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

It would be preferable to a No Deal.

And to think you had a pop at me recently for the quality of my argument!

 

[Tibbermoresaint]

39 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

All it does is kick the decision down the road. There are far worse alternatives available. Labour's 6 tests make it clear that whatever deal May makes they will vote against it. That could lead to a hard brexit. As could another referendum if the result goes the wrong way. As could a General Election with a Brexiteer led Tory party winning. May's deal means another 3 years to sort it out while we carry on as normal.

Not being in the EU is not carrying on as normal.

[ICTJohnboy]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It’s not ‘as normal’ it’s wothout a voice.  I prefer a second referendum (though my first choice is unilateral withdrawal of Article 50).

And to think you had a pop at me recently for the quality of my argument!

 

You've said often enough No Deal is not going to happen. Listening to all the usual suspects this morning, I fear it's becoming more than a distinct possibility. Are you still taking bets on that? I agree with your earlier comments on Nicola on Sophy Ridge. The rest of them just keep going round in circles repeating their well prepared soundbites ad nauseum.

[Granny Danger]

10 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

You've said often enough No Deal is not going to happen. Listening to all the usual suspects this morning, I fear it's becoming more than a distinct possibility. Are you still taking bets on that? I agree with your earlier comments on Nicola on Sophy Ridge. The rest of them just keep going round in circles repeating their well prepared soundbites ad nauseum.

Not sure I ever offered a bet but I’d be happy to do so.

No Deal won’t happen.

 

[BerwickMad]

Tony Blair is universally despised by just about any demographic you slice into. It's free political good will to attack him.

He really isn’t. Most of the electorate don’t get involved in politics (marching, social media, political meetings) and I’d say if he was standing against this lot he’d get quite a bit of support. He’s clearly nowhere near as popular as he was and he’s stained by Iraq and his post parliamentary career, but I hear all the time from people about how they wish we had politicians like Blair around. As opposed to the spineless lot we have now who can’t seem to make up their mind, never mind try and win an argument.

Labour are utterly pathetic in all of this. Standing for nothing when it comes to Brexit and waiting for the Tories collapse so that they can force a general election. Like the public will look kindly on a party that stood back during one of the most important periods in our history.

[Miguel Sanchez]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

May specifically attacking Blair’s intervention whilst ignoring mouthy Tory grandees.  I wonder why?

  Hide contents

Actually I know why.

 

[welshbairn]

Labour MP shares a platform with Farage, Rees Mogg and Sammy Wilson.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/we-didnt-spend-30-years-stopping-ira-to-allow-pm-and-eu-to-give-united-ireland-by-back-door-says-labour-mp-kate-hoey-37628958.html

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Labour MP shares a platform with Farage, Rees Mogg and Sammy Wilson.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/we-didnt-spend-30-years-stopping-ira-to-allow-pm-and-eu-to-give-united-ireland-by-back-door-says-labour-mp-kate-hoey-37628958.html

You could have just typed “Kate Hoey is a c**t”.

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

He really isn’t. Most of the electorate don’t get involved in politics (marching, social media, political meetings) and I’d say if he was standing against this lot he’d get quite a bit of support. He’s clearly nowhere near as popular as he was and he’s stained by Iraq and his post parliamentary career, but I hear all the time from people about how they wish we had politicians like Blair around. As opposed to the spineless lot we have now who can’t seem to make up their mind, never mind try and win an argument.

Labour are utterly pathetic in all of this. Standing for nothing when it comes to Brexit and waiting for the Tories collapse so that they can force a general election. Like the public will look kindly on a party that stood back during one of the most important periods in our history.

To say I'm no fan of Blair is an understatement, but in this instance he is making a valid intervention, and I think May's furious response is an indication of the fear that his comments have instilled in the No10 bunker.

She mentions demeaning his former office; this from a Prime Minister who last Tuesday demonstrated shitebaggery on a level seldom seen in modern times, and who knows she is hanging by a thread - they can't ALL be wrong Theresa.

You can also bet that Blair won't be acting alone; I'll be astonished if Mandelson isn't furiously working his EU contacts book behind the scenes, whilst Campbell will be covering the media aspect.

[cyderspaceman]

8 hours ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

The prospect of a Labour government propped up by the SNP is horrific. Would the English voter be ready to let a Scottish party with no interest in English matters effectively run the country as they would surely hold Labour to hostage? The SNP would sooner cut the throat of a Labour government to get what that want. A Scottish DUP, if you wish. I would have no truck with them.

[welshbairn]

14 hours ago, dee_62 said:

Couple of interesting articles.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-nine-lessons-of-brexit/
 

A link there to a very long and detailed speech by Ivan Rogers who used to be Our Man in Brussels about how utterly deluded London has been about Brexit from the start, and how they remain to be.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/