Too many clubs?

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I think what this debate shows is that nothing significant would change in Scottish football if it was left to the PT clubs to decide, self interest would prevail as it always has done, there would be no League Two relegation.  Posters have mentioned that the Juniors are archaic in their ways, and that's true to an extent, but that accusation can equally be leveled at many SPFL clubs and its followers. We need reform from top to bottom.

I just hope that Budge and/or others start asking the hard questions. Should Scottish football continue to subsidise PT clubs? As Bankies Alive says, is that money better directed to professional clubs who can give a player a full time career? Should we aim to have a core of say 24 pro-clubs playing in the SPFL nationally with the remainder playing regional football with the best of non-league and dare I say it B teams?

Unpopular questions but they deserve to be heard and debated.

I'll leave you to it.

 

 

Almost everyone on this thread who's given an opinion has said they're open to change to the system. What is it about this you're not understanding?

Those are not hard questions, they're fucking opinions with a question mark at the end.

Face it, every argument you've put forward has been torn limb from limb, then you've scampered on to the next unsubstantiated round of bullshit.

[vikingTON]

It seems that after several days and pages of silence that we'll never actually get to see the Brechin bumpkin's working as to why Scottish football (working as a hive mind, obviously) ought to "study Barcelona's play, setup and training", as opposed to merging dross outfits like his club or (the preferable solution IMO) using an aggressive relegation function to flush shit clubs out of the national game. It's not going to happen in the near future, but implementing an automatic two down system from League Two and a play-off for the 8th placed side would generate serious competitiveness from the bottom national level up. It would also give those who went down to the regional leagues (and East Stirling) a realistic chance of returning, which isn't really there now: but they'd have to do so on merit: not by virtue of being in the league setup sixty years ago and having done nothing since. 

A healthy incentive set up against mediocrity and failure at the bottom, tied with a broadened scouting approach in the top two tiers of the game and Scottish football would reach a substantially higher standard IMO. 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

The "subsidy stick" exists because the SFL/SPFL has existed in a relative closed shop. Edinburgh City might be bottom of League Two right now but if they'd been elected in 2002 or 2008, where would they be now? Would Inverness CT even exist if Clachnacuddin had been elected in 1960  or Inverness Thistle in 1974? Then there's the Gala's, Cove's & Preston's who've tried multiple times to get in to nationwide football.

The SFL/SPFL only had/has so much to give to be sustainable. So they pulled the ladder up and only offered a hand whenever it suited them.

[CityDave]

10 hours ago, Bankies Alive said:

Dumbarton trousered a six figure sum for being in the SPFL championship.Money that would be better off going to a full time club to create real jobs for young professional footballers.

Maybe the big clubs should break away and re form the SPL?

 

 

[ICTChris]

On 18/09/2016 at 15:17, Officer Barbrady said:

You actually make my own point for me. Caledonian, much more than Thistle, imo could have thrived in the SFL on their own merits. When i say lost to the game, it is entirely because of this deliberate act that when Inverness eventually did have a successful team, it averaged little more than Caley attracted during their heyday.....i recall attendances upwards of 4-5,000, yet when ICT defeated Clyde to all-but-seal the title in 2004, the crowd was given as around 4500.....adding the 'success' of a town the size of yours, and what i'd have imagined to be the history of a club like Clyde, that figure ought to have been much larger, and would have been if it were Caledonian on their own regardless of who they played. 

 

I'm late to this but this is just wrong.  Caley did not have crowds of up to 4-5000.  The final Caley-Thistle derby had a crowd of 1,500 - 2000.  

226 people voted against the merger in the final Members meeting that Caley had.  A few of those people go to ICT games now but that's your base level for the people who were "lost to the game" because of the merger.  A significant number of those weren't lost to the game as they went and supported Rangers.

[GordonD]

The people who say there are too many clubs are comparing Scottish football to a lifeboat. Apparently it's overloaded and we need to chuck people overboard to prevent it sinking.

So why not start with the two fat b*****ds sitting at the front hoarding all the food?

[CityDave]

10 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I think what this debate shows is that nothing significant would change in Scottish football if it was left to the PT clubs to decide, self interest would prevail as it always has done, there would be no League Two relegation.  Posters have mentioned that the Juniors are archaic in their ways, and that's true to an extent, but that accusation can equally be leveled at many SPFL clubs and its followers. We need reform from top to bottom.

I just hope that Budge and/or others start asking the hard questions. Should Scottish football continue to subsidise PT clubs? As Bankies Alive says, is that money better directed to professional clubs who can give a player a full time career? Should we aim to have a core of say 24 pro-clubs playing in the SPFL nationally with the remainder playing regional football with the best of non-league and dare I say it B teams?

Unpopular questions but they deserve to be heard and debated.

I'll leave you to it.

 

 

Greed and self interest was what motivated the formation of the SPL, now that the clubs share more within the SPFL and now folks like yourself aren't happy with this change only 3 years after and call it self interest and now yet again call for protectionism for the biggest clubs.

I'm confused, which one of those the SPL or the SPFL is more about self interest and greed??

I don't see why the bigger Junior clubs in the West and East can just get their houses in order and be at least open to the idea of joining the Lowland League, even the much much smaller but yet more ambitious North Junior clubs are showing them the way forward. Ex Juniors clubs like Cove Rangers, Inverurie Locos, Turriff Utd and Formartine Utd are among the top clubs in the HL now and it didn't take long for them to achieve this. Also we have clubs like Culter and Banks O' Dee who have shown intention to join the HL in the future. Yes, these tiny little clubs that get pummeled 8-0 or 7-0 by their West and East opponents in the SJ cup every season are leading the way when it comes to being open to progress.

It seems some Juniors fans want the SPFL to change to suit them rather than their clubs or their league set up themselves to change and adapt to the times.

 

[Gordon EF]

Junior fans probably just don't want their big team 'dropping' down too far next time they go bust.

[CityDave]

31 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I'm late to this but this is just wrong.  Caley did not have crowds of up to 4-5000.  The final Caley-Thistle derby had a crowd of 1,500 - 2000.  

226 people voted against the merger in the final Members meeting that Caley had.  A few of those people go to ICT games now but that's your base level for the people who were "lost to the game" because of the merger.  A significant number of those weren't lost to the game as they went and supported Rangers.

I'm still trying to work out where those 4,000 fans he was talking about that we supposedly had in attendance for our games were hiding.

[Officer Barbrady]

38 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I'm late to this but this is just wrong.  Caley did not have crowds of up to 4-5000.  The final Caley-Thistle derby had a crowd of 1,500 - 2000.  

226 people voted against the merger in the final Members meeting that Caley had.  A few of those people go to ICT games now but that's your base level for the people who were "lost to the game" because of the merger.  A significant number of those weren't lost to the game as they went and supported Rangers.

Thanks for the exact figures, it appeared beyond Dave to supply them, and he obviously took comfort in his own paranoia, and trying to label me a smartarse. 

 

Im not naive to assume that those Rangers/Celtic fans would suddenly have just had enough after the loss of Caley and Thistle, but i'm looking at this from the angle that those two clubs need fans a lot less than anyone else. Its also worth considering that the alternative standards at which the local clubs, and the 'big' clubs they chose to associate with, isn't unlike fans of Scottish League sides having an English one too. It's a foreign concept to me, but each to their own. Personally, i'd question the genuine level of passion for any more than one club, and of course the evidence is palpable in places like Inverness, which had no alternative until 1994, has definitely not got the level of emotional attatchment which the likes of Falkirk, Dunfermline, Motherwell etc have within their towns against the same backdrop of OF carpet-baggers. 

 

Couldn't help notice CityDave saying how he 'eventually came around' to the merger after a few years. No coincidence there, whatsoever, given their quick rise. 

[Officer Barbrady]

6 minutes ago, CityDave said:

I'm still trying to work out where those 4,000 fans he was talking about that we supposedly had in attendance for our games were hiding.

I already explained this. You're as bad as the juniors. 

 

I only ever noticed from.watching Sportscene back in the day, when Caley dumped several League teams from the Cup in front of a full Telford Street. 

 

I didn't say 4,000 was your normal gate, as i've no idea what was. I am however slightly more knowledgable about ICT in the national set-up, and can see that despite this appetite for one-off matches existing, as you say from the 1950s onwards, when the city now actually has a PL established, Cup-winning team, they are no better supported than they were as one (or two) clubs in those times. 

 

This can't be used as any sort of barometer in guaging any prospective mergers, for that very reason. Its NOT the success its painted as. ICT have largely brought the same number of players to represent Scotland through as Arbroath, and less than Clyde and Queen's Park, for example, which demonstrates how poor the level is in which ICT are 'thriving'. Maybe the people of Inverness are more savvy than i'm crediting them for here, and simply just don't really care about the side because of the poor quality against what it costs. Fair enough, hard to argue. But crowds as a whole are actually similar to what they've been over the last 30 years in Scotland, some teams more, some less....but you'd kind of expect that if the merger wasn't as big a deal as i'm accused of assuming, ICT's gstes would be a lot higher still, given the meteoric rise whilst representing the town. 

[CityDave]

49 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

I already explained this. You're as bad as the juniors. 

 

I only ever noticed from.watching Sportscene back in the day, when Caley dumped several League teams from the Cup in front of a full Telford Street. 

 

I didn't say 4,000 was your normal gate, as i've no idea what was. I am however slightly more knowledgable about ICT in the national set-up, and can see that despite this appetite for one-off matches existing, as you say from the 1950s onwards, when the city now actually has a PL established, Cup-winning team, they are no better supported than they were as one (or two) clubs in those times. 

 

This can't be used as any sort of barometer in guaging any prospective mergers, for that very reason. Its NOT the success its painted as. ICT have largely brought the same number of players to represent Scotland through as Arbroath, and less than Clyde and Queen's Park, for example, which demonstrates how poor the level is in which ICT are 'thriving'. Maybe the people of Inverness are more savvy than i'm crediting them for here, and simply just don't really care about the side because of the poor quality against what it costs. Fair enough, hard to argue. But crowds as a whole are actually similar to what they've been over the last 30 years in Scotland, some teams more, some less....but you'd kind of expect that if the merger wasn't as big a deal as i'm accused of assuming, ICT's gstes would be a lot higher still, given the meteoric rise whilst representing the town. 

You are still posting opinions as facts, please give me some evidence. And you haven't answered any questions such as when and where did I claim mergers would work elsewhere?

2nd Paragraph - Then you would need to apply this to every other club in the present as well so its irrelevant.

I don't know how many players started their careers at the clubs you mention and then went on to play for Scotland but you forget that those clubs have had more than a century of existence to bring through 100s of players during that time some of whom would have gone on to play for Scotland and in yesteryear the environment was very different with many top clubs regarding non league football, HL, EoS and the Juniors to find those wee gems against only 22 years of ICT whom has existed during a time where players are less likely to be sourced from the smaller club by the bigger clubs for that stepping stone to international football.

I'm seeing on average bigger crowds at the Caley Stadium than what the attendances were usually like at Telford Street or Kingsmills. Did you know there was an set attendance limit of 5,500 at Telford Street, this to my knowledge reached twice in the Scottish Cup first Rangers then St. Johnstone. 4,000 fans made the trip down to Muirton for the replay with the Saints, now don't tell me these were all regulars at Telford Street?? What is the difference between that and the thousands that made the journey to the Cup Final season before last?.

Did you know the Scottish Cup match between Huntly and Airdrie at Christie Park had 3,000 fans in attendance, similar for the Dundee Utd game a couple of years later. Now, those games were featured on Sportscene can you claim that Huntly often get 3,000 supporters often simply based on what you see on tv? Its the same logic you go by for Inverness applied somewhere else?

I'm not going to get into a slagging match with you despite your efforts.

 

 

[Jacksgranda]

12 hours ago, Redstarstranraer said:

 

 

I didn't realise all those years of the 'closed shop' had embittered the juniors so much.  Why on earth senior P/T sides, especially now there is a pyramid, ought to be regionalised and separated out from the F/T game hasn't really been articulated.  What has been demonstrated is that some junior fans out of some sort of misdirected resentment seem to want the Stranraers or Montroses of the world brought down to 'their level'.  It all seems to be along the lines of 'we play regionally so they should as well, because Auchinleck Talbot pure have more fans so they do'.  Either that or 'we do it and it's better so you have to do it to'.  Or alternately that actually the juniors want to play (or some of them do) against these senior sides but only in essentially a new version of their own regional leagues and are flailing around to justify this on spurious notions of 'the good of the game'.  I'll say it again: if these junior clubs want to test themselves against the seniors sign up for the SOSL or the EOSL and work your way up the pyramid.  Or don't, as those are regional leagues and might 'fit your profile'.

Once again the senior clubs and their fans don't want it.  Clubs and fans that actually make a significant contribution to the Scottish game, help develop players, generate revenue, aren't massively subsidised (and are on average more financially stable than the professional sides), are important to their communities and are perfectly comfortable playing in a national set up.

"forced to rise to their level", surely?

[CityDave]

1 hour ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Thanks for the exact figures, it appeared beyond Dave to supply them, and he obviously took comfort in his own paranoia, and trying to label me a smartarse. 

 

Im not naive to assume that those Rangers/Celtic fans would suddenly have just had enough after the loss of Caley and Thistle, but i'm looking at this from the angle that those two clubs need fans a lot less than anyone else. Its also worth considering that the alternative standards at which the local clubs, and the 'big' clubs they chose to associate with, isn't unlike fans of Scottish League sides having an English one too. It's a foreign concept to me, but each to their own. Personally, i'd question the genuine level of passion for any more than one club, and of course the evidence is palpable in places like Inverness, which had no alternative until 1994, has definitely not got the level of emotional attatchment which the likes of Falkirk, Dunfermline, Motherwell etc have within their towns against the same backdrop of OF carpet-baggers. 

 

Couldn't help notice CityDave saying how he 'eventually came around' to the merger after a few years. No coincidence there, whatsoever, given their quick rise. 

I'm in good sensible poster mood today and I'm not going to change that despite your patronising and belittling.

Ask and thou shall receive stats, its a two way thing though, being nice would be a start. Why don't you answer some of my questions and I will answer yours if you actually have any and we might just have a decent conversation.

I started going regularly to watch ICT when the club was at the bottom of the league 2nd Division as it was then (3rd tier) after they moved to the new stadium on the edge of town, so not after a few years, I said a couple of years. I had on occasion watched the new club at Telford Street since I lived not far from the ground. I simply love football and I needed a football fix and I certainly wasn't going to start supporting a club from another town/city that I have nothing in common or any link to. Inverness is my place, my home, its where I was brought up. I'm proud to support a team from the Inverness, also see my sig representing the local Junior club Inverness City. Its about football in Inverness for me and the love of the game, that's what motivates myself to be a football supporter.

What team or teams do you support?

 

 

 

[Paco]

Is there any kind of scope for a three pronged feeder into the professional leagues, rather than simply Highland/Lowland as we currently have? I'd love to see the Juniors involved, if only to see how they'd actually get on, but it seems they're too insular to want it. Which is upto them entirely.

So would there be any possibility of keeping their leagues as is, but merging the East/West Superleagues, with regional Junior leagues below that. The winners of the merged league, as well as the winners of the Highland/Lowland League, go into a 20 team 'National Conference', an amalgamation of League 1 & 2, which feeds into a 12 team Championship and a 12 team top flight.

Juniors still play Junior teams, it's all regionalised unless you're in the Superleague (and even then the biggest journey will be what, Troon to Kelty?) but for the cream of the crop the chance is there to venture into the professional leagues. They can even carry on with the thirty regional, 'everyone's a winner' type tournaments as they wish, in the way Lowland/Highland league teams do.

To me that would be nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

[Officer Barbrady]

1 hour ago, CityDave said:

You are still posting opinions as facts, please give me some evidence. And you haven't answered any questions such as when and where did I claim mergers would work elsewhere?

2nd Paragraph - Then you would need to apply this to every other club in the present as well so its irrelevant.

I don't know how many players started their careers at the clubs you mention and then went on to play for Scotland but you forget that those clubs have had more than a century of existence to bring through 100s of players during that time some of whom would have gone on to play for Scotland and in yesteryear the environment was very different with many top clubs regarding non league football, HL, EoS and the Juniors to find those wee gems against only 22 years of ICT whom has existed during a time where players are less likely to be sourced from the smaller club by the bigger clubs for that stepping stone to international football.

I'm seeing on average bigger crowds at the Caley Stadium than what the attendances were usually like at Telford Street or Kingsmills. Did you know there was an set attendance limit of 5,500 at Telford Street, this to my knowledge reached twice in the Scottish Cup first Rangers then St. Johnstone. 4,000 fans made the trip down to Muirton for the replay with the Saints, now don't tell me these were all regulars at Telford Street?? What is the difference between that and the thousands that made the journey to the Cup Final season before last?.

Did you know the Scottish Cup match between Huntly and Airdrie at Christie Park had 3,000 fans in attendance, similar for the Dundee Utd game a couple of years later. Now, those games were featured on Sportscene can you claim that Huntly often get 3,000 supporters often simply based on what you see on tv? Its the same logic you go by for Inverness applied somewhere else?

I'm not going to get into a slagging match with you despite your efforts.

 

 

None of the clubs who brought through the players i refer to have hit any of the heights ICT have done, whilst in that timeframe from 1994, giving us Andy Robertson, Gordon Greer, Andy Webster, and Neil Alexander at Stenny, and if we want to be looser about it, a pre-Prem Hamilton gave the world Paul Hartley, and Clydebank us Gary Teale. The players were there, and sourced as per normal. 100 plus years doesn't really come into it. Your earliest rivals, Livingston, can also point to Snodgrass, Dorrans and Griffiths to have made it on this stage. This isn't a criticism of ICT not doing anything for the game, by the way....a mere observation that for all their progress, only Barry Robson ever made it as far as those did. 

 

Your mixing up of opinions/facts is a bit self-serving....i've just provided you with some, relating to player development, not to criticise your club, but to emphasise that my opinions are based on things which HAVE occurred. For the success ICT have acheived, (it has to be said its been done by your club getting the best years out of many, many players, from Mann, Tokely, Wilson, Sheerin, Wyness etc) the dwindling quality overall has definitely assisted in taking them further......and filling the team with English League 2 journeymen may have worked out well for you, but hardly staples a strong community ideal either. Would Caley be a bigger club on their own with larger crowds, strong local links, and thus negating the need to use it as a shining example of mergers like your pal Christie? In my opinion, yes.   

 

The crowds factor, well yes, of course every club has peaks and troughs. We could only ever truly compare though if another merger took place, and the lost crowds judged against what the clubs may have gained by doing it....i doubt that any fusion of any number of clubs would achieve anywhere near even the amount of fans the 'larger' club among them had, even accounting for newbies loving the sterile, passionless novelty factor. I would bet my house on it failing to achieve that.

 

We actually agree quite a lot here....but i think it sticks in your craw that i'm subliminally picking on your club, when in truth i can't exactly pick on any others because there are no other precedents. 

[CityDave]

That's all these clubs put together vs Inverness Caley Thistle, seriously?? I'm I meant play that game and get distracted away from the original points?. Well here goes.

No, that's fantastic that clubs like Arbroath and Clyde can find brilliant talent like that, it should fully justify their existence to those mouth piece supporters of the bigger clubs that want to purge clubs of that size from the Scottish League. (Brings us back to Mr Charlie 'Celtic fan' Christie which was what this was all about in the first place).

Thing is you don't have to be Scottish to get a chance at a club like Inverness Caley Thistle or many others like us these days, over the last 8 or so years we have been bringing in promising young players from all over the country, a lot of young players between the ages of 16 and 21 many didn't make it, some did and stayed, some moved on to bigger and better things, (Stuart Armstrong currently of Celtic was the one that got away) some of them winning caps for their countries although we are hopeful for a couple of players who started out here Ryan Christie and Graeme Shinnie to win their first full caps at some point in the future. But as I've pointed out the club is still young and it will take time to build up a list of players from the area who were brought through played for the club and then went on to win caps for their countries, Richard Hastings is an example. Its not easy especially if there isn't enough talented young players up here in the Highlands or rather lack of opportunities.

The reason for the club going down the route of looking in lower league, youth teams and reserves of clubs down in England is because ICT is not a big club with a lot of money to throw at distinctly average home based players so the best option has to be to be competitive with the other clubs in the Premiership is to find players who are willing to take a chance, sometimes a drop in wages to make a name for themselves up here so they can earn that big move that they might not get if they had stayed in the Burnley reserves or playing in League 2 for Newport County, find a few wee gems in there that have been passed over. Its not all League 1 and 2 journeymen up here.

Football clubs like ICT are not all about how many internationalist the club produces its about giving good players who might have dropped out of the game a second chance, that has to be a good thing and this club has been doing this since the start back in 1994. I do wish for more locally born players to play for the club, but its the same everywhere that nets have to be cast further to find the right players. I'm sure you would agree with me that grass roots football in Scotland is not the standard it was even back in 1994. But there are clubs who do try harder to encourage and bring through young local players, Hamilton Accies for one. 

I hope we can at least agree on some of this.

 

 

[itzdrk]

Is there any kind of scope for a three pronged feeder into the professional leagues, rather than simply Highland/Lowland as we currently have? I'd love to see the Juniors involved, if only to see how they'd actually get on, but it seems they're too insular to want it. Which is upto them entirely.

So would there be any possibility of keeping their leagues as is, but merging the East/West Superleagues, with regional Junior leagues below that. The winners of the merged league, as well as the winners of the Highland/Lowland League, go into a 20 team 'National Conference', an amalgamation of League 1 & 2, which feeds into a 12 team Championship and a 12 team top flight.

Juniors still play Junior teams, it's all regionalised unless you're in the Superleague (and even then the biggest journey will be what, Troon to Kelty?) but for the cream of the crop the chance is there to venture into the professional leagues. They can even carry on with the thirty regional, 'everyone's a winner' type tournaments as they wish, in the way Lowland/Highland league teams do.

To me that would be nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

The juniors should not get to waltz in 3 years late to the party and be treated the same as the rest, they had their chance to get involved in the LL.

They should be a lowland feeder league.

[Officer Barbrady]

56 minutes ago, CityDave said:

That's all these clubs put together vs Inverness Caley Thistle, seriously?? I'm I meant play that game and get distracted away from the original points?. Well here goes.

No, that's fantastic that clubs like Arbroath and Clyde can find brilliant talent like that, it should fully justify their existence to those mouth piece supporters of the bigger clubs that want to purge clubs of that size from the Scottish League. (Brings us back to Mr Charlie 'Celtic fan' Christie which was what this was all about in the first place).

Thing is you don't have to be Scottish to get a chance at a club like Inverness Caley Thistle or many others like us these days, over the last 8 or so years we have been bringing in promising young players from all over the country, a lot of young players between the ages of 16 and 21 many didn't make it, some did and stayed, some moved on to bigger and better things, (Stuart Armstrong currently of Celtic was the one that got away) some of them winning caps for their countries although we are hopeful for a couple of players who started out here Ryan Christie and Graeme Shinnie to win their first full caps at some point in the future. But as I've pointed out the club is still young and it will take time to build up a list of players from the area who were brought through played for the club and then went on to win caps for their countries, Richard Hastings is an example. Its not easy especially if there isn't enough talented young players up here in the Highlands or rather lack of opportunities.

The reason for the club going down the route of looking in lower league, youth teams and reserves of clubs down in England is because ICT is not a big club with a lot of money to throw at distinctly average home based players so the best option has to be to be competitive with the other clubs in the Premiership is to find players who are willing to take a chance, sometimes a drop in wages to make a name for themselves up here so they can earn that big move that they might not get if they had stayed in the Burnley reserves or playing in League 2 for Newport County, find a few wee gems in there that have been passed over. Its not all League 1 and 2 journeymen up here.

Football clubs like ICT are not all about how many internationalist the club produces its about giving good players who might have dropped out of the game a second chance, that has to be a good thing and this club has been doing this since the start back in 1994. I do wish for more locally born players to play for the club, but its the same everywhere that nets have to be cast further to find the right players. I'm sure you would agree with me that grass roots football in Scotland is not the standard it was even back in 1994. But there are clubs who do try harder to encourage and bring through young local players, Hamilton Accies for one. 

I hope we can at least agree on some of this.

 

 

Every word. Of course, what you say is right, and perhaps i've gotten sidetracked in looking to justify why ICT are the exception, and not the rule, where conjoined clubs is concerned. Its also not their fault the likes of Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd made an absolute c**t of their affairs, although those affairs did result in the lowering of the general standard in the Prem. I also would have to say that sourcing local youth, while not an obligation, would be far more beneficial than trawling Tranmere and Stevenage Borough for players, but that is your clubs' choice, as they are entitled. 

 

Accies haven't prioritised local youth EXCLUSIVELY either, but have fused it excellently, whilst taking a risk in potential relegations instead of clinging to their status at any cost. But, getting back to Christie.....

 

Essentially, the link between Caley's English contingent, and more mergers in the SPFL, is that as professionals, players are duty bound to go where the money is, especially if where there may be upwards of 1000-1200 professional places available now, becomes 850-900 then lesser as we go, they find themselves on the dole. The majority of both Caley and Thistle players were in favour of the merger, even though many never got near the actual team; perhaps they voted with one eye on future generations having League representation in the area, more than for their own gain, but still.....this vested interest should ensure no players get anything like a say in it. Past or present. 

[CityDave]

38 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Every word. Of course, what you say is right, and perhaps i've gotten sidetracked in looking to justify why ICT are the exception, and not the rule, where conjoined clubs is concerned. Its also not their fault the likes of Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd made an absolute c**t of their affairs, although those affairs did result in the lowering of the general standard in the Prem. I also would have to say that sourcing local youth, while not an obligation, would be far more beneficial than trawling Tranmere and Stevenage Borough for players, but that is your clubs' choice, as they are entitled. 

 

Accies haven't prioritised local youth EXCLUSIVELY either, but have fused it excellently, whilst taking a risk in potential relegations instead of clinging to their status at any cost. But, getting back to Christie.....

 

Essentially, the link between Caley's English contingent, and more mergers in the SPFL, is that as professionals, players are duty bound to go where the money is, especially if where there may be upwards of 1000-1200 professional places available now, becomes 850-900 then lesser as we go, they find themselves on the dole. The majority of both Caley and Thistle players were in favour of the merger, even though many never got near the actual team; perhaps they voted with one eye on future generations having League representation in the area, more than for their own gain, but still.....this vested interest should ensure no players get anything like a say in it. Past or present. 

Agree, I don't think it could have been for their own gain since very few lasted long enough at the new club and likely many knew this was going to happen, many never joined the new club maybe because they didn't fancy the traveling or simply because the manager at the time Sergei Baltacha didn't think they were good enough. Many ended up at Clach improving their fortunes for a couple of season. When Steve Paterson arrived the following season after he cleared out most of the remaining ex Caley and Thistle players since they were deemed only good enough to play in the 4th tier, he was more ambitious for the club.

The only player I know of from that Baltacha era that moved on to bigger and better things was Alan Smart, most of the others returned to Highland League football. However we had some promising young players coming through at the time who would form the backbone of the team through the next few years a couple of them (Hastings and Tokely) would go onto be 1st team regulars into the next decade and one of them (Ross Tokely) into the next after that. 

I think for a club the size of Inverness Caley Thistle to not just survive in the Premiership but thrive is a real achievement especially when much bigger clubs with larger backing and more resources from larger catchment areas can't. Its up to them to get ahead of us, ICT have arguably thrived in a time where others have struggled, same as County and Accies. I wonder how much longer that will go on though as the bigger currently underachieving clubs get their houses in order?