Investment

[SilverWolfe]

5 minutes ago, CityDave said:

How long would it take for an Angus Utd to attract similar crowds to say Raith Rovers or Morton? 15 years, 50 years??? Who's to say that most of the original fans will either shift their support to the local Junior sides or be lost to the game completely. That post of yours just shows how little respect for the smaller clubs and their fans you have. These fans have a pride in their club and their towns and enjoy a rivalry with other clubs in the area. Merging all four clubs would take that identity away. Also if you reduce the clubs by merging you also reduce the number of footballers, meaning less clubs less opportunities for aspiring young players who would be lost to the game instead of being given a chance by a small team to develop and then move on to bigger things. 

Supporting a small club and what that takes is something you obviously can't get your head around being a Celtic fan. Maybe being a Celtic fan you see little point in supporting other teams since they don't win trophies.

Why don't you ask supporters of these clubs what they think?

I respect the fans of smaller clubs who turn up every week to support their team, Ive been along to support Dumbarton a lot over the years so I do actually have an insight into what it's like supporting a small time. I'm also a Scotland fan and was a Celtic fan during the 90s when I was a young boy so it's got nothing to do with winning trophies. People like you show a lack of respect to OF fans like me who support their team for the exact same reasons as fans of small town teams. Just because we win more doesn't mean we haven't supported the team since the day we were born and been all over the Country to support them in shite weather while being made out to be bigots because a few morons decide to give us a bad name. I have pride in my team as much as an Arbroath fan has in his team. 

What I don't respect is the lack of ambition to grow and improve. Why should these 2,000 fans have the power to prevent a bigger club being created for the future generations to enjoy in 50 or 100 years time. Just because a bunch of guys today dont see the benefits to Scottish football doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. 

I can't see your club on my device but I'm assuming you're a Caley fan? If so I can't believe I'm even having a debate with you on the benefits of small clubs merging to create a bigger club that a wider area can enjoy together. Surely your club are the precedent that proves that it does work or can work? I'm sure there were fans of both Inverness clubs ripping up season tickets and going mental because it took away their local small town clubs that they had pride in. It didn't stop Caley doing what they have done while attracting good crowds in the top league in Scotland though did it? 

[Dindeleux]

There is absolutely no need for Celtic and Rangers to merge. We accept our place in European football and don't hate every big club in Europe for having better resources than us.

You are just lying now.

[RandomGuy.]

14 minutes ago, The Grass Is Greener. said:

Are those figures average weekly wages for first team players? £2500 for Aberdeen?

They take the wage bill then divide it by the amount of players, its an absolutely ridiculous thing that people have a bizarre obsession with taking seriously.

[jakedee]

There is absolutely no need for Celtic and Rangers to merge. We accept our place in European football and don't hate every big club in Europe for having better resources than us. You like to piss and moan about not having the resources and you despise celtic and Rangers because we do. That's the difference here, if you don't like it then do something to be more competitive or simply accept your place and get on with it like we do in Europe

Am I getting this right,you don't want Celtic and Rangers to merge to compete in Europe,because "you accept your place and get on with it,"but want Dundee and United to merge to compete in Scotland ?as if we don't accept "our place." If you honestly believe a merged Dundee club would attract more fans than each club do now individually then there's no hope for you.The only conclusion of a merged club would be fans lost to the game.The hypocrisy in what you're saying is astounding.

ETA,the bleating by some Celtic supporters about the gulf in finances between your club and Barca after you were humped by them,shows that not all have accepted " their place".

[lionel hutz]

5 hours ago, The Grass Is Greener. said:

Are those figures average weekly wages for first team players? £2500 for Aberdeen?

Yep

[JamieThomas]

7 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I really wouldn't. Aberdeen and Hearts fan are insufferable c***s as it is, them winning the league would be horrendous. Dundee or United winning it would be even worse.

I can confirm on behalf of Hearts fans that we'd be absolutely fucking unbearable.

[CityDave]

9 hours ago, Tartantony said:

I respect the fans of smaller clubs who turn up every week to support their team, Ive been along to support Dumbarton a lot over the years so I do actually have an insight into what it's like supporting a small time. I'm also a Scotland fan and was a Celtic fan during the 90s when I was a young boy so it's got nothing to do with winning trophies. People like you show a lack of respect to OF fans like me who support their team for the exact same reasons as fans of small town teams. Just because we win more doesn't mean we haven't supported the team since the day we were born and been all over the Country to support them in shite weather while being made out to be bigots because a few morons decide to give us a bad name. I have pride in my team as much as an Arbroath fan has in his team. 

What I don't respect is the lack of ambition to grow and improve. Why should these 2,000 fans have the power to prevent a bigger club being created for the future generations to enjoy in 50 or 100 years time. Just because a bunch of guys today dont see the benefits to Scottish football doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. 

I can't see your club on my device but I'm assuming you're a Caley fan? If so I can't believe I'm even having a debate with you on the benefits of small clubs merging to create a bigger club that a wider area can enjoy together. Surely your club are the precedent that proves that it does work or can work? I'm sure there were fans of both Inverness clubs ripping up season tickets and going mental because it took away their local small town clubs that they had pride in. It didn't stop Caley doing what they have done while attracting good crowds in the top league in Scotland though did it? 

I always thought both Dundee clubs had a few more than 2,000 fans each?

The whole point of most football clubs is to represent the community they are from, if you start merging established community clubs this will get diluted, supporters get isolated and feel betrayed. Most clubs listen to the views of their supporters since the supporters are the main source of regular income and there is always an emotional attachment regardless where these clubs are in the ladder. Regardless of what you think, you have to go with the wishes of the supporters of these clubs, its their club, they should have a say in how their club is run. Mergers are messy, you are effectively killing the two clubs off and taking away something that many hold dear.

If you want the smaller clubs to merge then you must be prepared to accept that equally your own club should merge with another. You can't set a side your own club as a special case and treat it differently. With out this you are belittling the supporters of these other clubs as not having as much an attachment to their club as you have. It comes across as self centered. Why would you want others to make a sacrifice that you are not willing to take yourself, its also cowardly.

I asked you previously about Wallace Mercer's plans to merge the Edinburgh clubs. There were plans to merge the two Dundee clubs in the 90's. Both times this went on in secrecy, without the supporters of the clubs knowing or knowing much about it. Had it happened in either cases most fans would feel betrayed, it would be very very bitter and most of the fans would have nothing to do with the new club. Mergers never happen with the consent of the supporters, its always business driven by people who put money first over anything else. Merging football clubs is not like merging two similar businesses, supporters should be treated as more than just customers, they are supporters....understand the meaning of the word.

Also why would you assume that a Caley Thistle fan would support mergers in general?

[Dubford don]

15 hours ago, Tartantony said:

 

Predictable response as usual!

Let's try leave out the Celtic and Rangers bigotry stuff for once and discuss the point of the thread

 

It's not always bigotry but it is religion.A guy I work with offshore with from Dumbarton is a Celtic fan and his best mate is a Rangers fan,neither are bigoted in any way but their religion is the reason they support the clubs they do.

if both Celtic and Rangers had evolved like normal clubs the people of Dumbarton might just regard them as 2 teams from Glasgow instead of the natural clubs for them to follow.Multiply this thousands of times in every west coast town and there's the problem in a nutshell.

 

[Ross.]

Anyone who suggests clubs merging together as some form of remedial action should automatically be removed from any discussion about the issues facing Scottish football.

[SilverWolfe]

Anyone who suggests clubs merging together as some form of remedial action should automatically be removed from any discussion about the issues facing Scottish football.

42 "professional clubs" in a country of 5 million is far too much and is a part of the problem the game faces. If someone can't see that then they ought to just give up

[Ross.]

Just now, Tartantony said:

 

42 "professional clubs" in a country of 5 million is far too much and is a part of the problem the game faces. If someone can't see that then they ought to just give up

The number of professional clubs is completely irrelevant and a complete red herring, as is the size of their respective supports. The closed shop of 42 clubs was causing the damage, not the number of clubs. We are now moving away from that. The sooner a fully functional pyramid covering the whole game in Scotland is in place the better. It will allow clubs to find their own level.

We need more people playing more football at as high a level as possible with as high a quality of coaching and facilities as possible. Merging clubs or closing ranks further will not do anything to fix the issues Scottish football faces.

[ICTChris]

I should save the post about mergers that I always make in these sort of threads.

The merger in Inverness worked because of the unique circumstances - two clubs of a similar size (Caley were bigger but it varied on who was most successful) in a medium sized town with a history of clubs combining.  There was a clear benefit to merging - entry into the SFL.  The structure of both clubs allowed fans to vote on the proposals as both were members clubs, every season ticket holder got a vote.  You don't have that situation in any other place in Scotland that regularly gets touted for a merger.  if Dundee and Dundee United merge, what sort of club would they be?  They'd be a decent level Premiership team, challanging for cup wins and European places, in the very best case.  Nothing that Dundee or United can't aspire to do on their own.  That's without the costs that such a merger woudl have - it would need to be done over both supports heads so they'd likely lose a lot of fans and there would be associated legal costs.

You can't say that something that has been successful in Inverness would be successful in Dundee, or vice versa.  People in Scottish football are obsessed that there's a quick fix to success - merge clubs!  16 team league!  Summer football!  Colt teams!  These are generally ideas that refuse to die and none of them would make Scottish football better, or allow Scotland to produce better players.

[SilverWolfe]

The number of professional clubs is completely irrelevant and a complete red herring, as is the size of their respective supports. The closed shop of 42 clubs was causing the damage, not the number of clubs. We are now moving away from that. The sooner a fully functional pyramid covering the whole game in Scotland is in place the better. It will allow clubs to find their own level.

We need more people playing more football at as high a level as possible with as high a quality of coaching and facilities as possible. Merging clubs or closing ranks further will not do anything to fix the issues Scottish football faces.

I agree that we need a full pyramid system and we are at least moving in the right direction for that. However, there is absolutely nothing stopping teams merging and still having a pyramid system

[ICTChris]

5 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

I agree that we need a full pyramid system and we are at least moving in the right direction for that. However, there is absolutely nothing stopping teams merging and still having a pyramid system

 

What is the benefit of teams merging and reducing the number of teams in Scotland?  

[Ross.]

5 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

 

I agree that we need a full pyramid system and we are at least moving in the right direction for that. However, there is absolutely nothing stopping teams merging and still having a pyramid system

What is the benefit of teams merging?

The example of the Angus clubs has been used often in this context. How big an area would that cover? Where would the new club play? How many fans of the old clubs would switch to supporting someone else? What about the roles that clubs like Montrose, Brechin, Forfar and Arbroath play in their local area, what happens there?

The answer is to decentralize move power down the chain, not to consolidate and centralize power further up.

[williemillersmoustache]

4 hours ago, JamieThomas said:

I can confirm on behalf of Hearts fans that we'd be absolutely fucking unbearable.

And on behalf of Aberdeen I would just like to confirm that nobody, would ever, ever hear the end of it.

[Davie Bhoy]

Speaking of Investment, rumour has it there will be some investment into Celtic from the Middle East after the Celtic fans found new fans with the public support for Palestine.

I guess if this is true then we'll be looking at more happier days being Scotlands CHAMPIONS.

Maybe we should just commission a new trophy for finishing 2nd.

[Bobby Skidmarks]

Isis investing in Celtic? I expect the halftime hangings will go down well with the candle lighters at Parkhead.

[CityDave]

In Inverness we have had and still do have a lack of opportunities for footballers at all levels to progress to another level within the area. We have Inverness Caledonian Thistle, then a huge gap down to mid table Highland League level with Clach then another gap down to the Juniors with Inverness City who are an amateur team, then we have the summer amateur leagues, that's it. There are not a lot of opportunities for players based in Inverness who might not be good enough for the top flight but better than HL level, where do they go and what about the young players than develop as they get older?

Many promising young players never get the chance to develop after they are 15, 16, 18 or 21 if they are with ICT and instead of dropping down to a team like Alloa or Morton so they can get the opportunity at a level that might be more beneficial to their development say in getting regular first team football, they end up dropping down 4 levels to the HL and generally fall of the radar of the SPFL clubs. The point of this is that the smaller clubs within the SPFL have a very important role in Scottish football. If these clubs merged all those opportunities would be gone, we would suffer badly as a nation when it comes to producing talented potential top team players and future internationals. There would be huge quality gaps between the top teams and the mid level and non league teams, it would strangle development of our own home grown players.

The MLS model is irrelevant, the USA is a huge country and clubs have to travel long distances. We live in a small country and there seems little point in regionalising anything above level 5, all the SPFL clubs don't want it.

Investment should be about encouraging growth, not giving and then taking away. There is a lack of it in this football daft country and there is too much attention on what others are doing, what might work for someone else might not work for us, its distracting. Why not think up our own ideas? The pyramid is a good idea, its not ours but its a good one, I think we are all in agreement with that. I would like to see all the remaining semi pro clubs and the better run amateur clubs join the pyramid to make it more inclusive system, clubs from all over Scotland involved.

Investment shouldn't be exclusive to the top teams, clubs at all levels need it. The pyramid itself could do with more not fewer clubs.

[CityDave]

10 minutes ago, Davie Bhoy said:

Speaking of Investment, rumour has it there will be some investment into Celtic from the Middle East after the Celtic fans found new fans with the public support for Palestine.

I guess if this is true then we'll be looking at more happier days being Scotlands CHAMPIONS.

Maybe we should just commission a new trophy for finishing 2nd.

Saw that last night. Probably a reaction to the Red Bull Sevco rumours. Good one though.