Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

32 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

There is no long term future in the Juniors remaining isolationist. People who think there is are dinosaurs frankly, sorry if that upsets you.

 

.........it appears to have upset poor Glenafton93 given his negative blob for my post 

[Auld Heid]

"Culling the waste",  how very Linlithgow.........
Ground standards have already been set by the SFA Licencing scheme, if and when any coming together of Junior and Senior non-league happens, then at that point you begin to encourage clubs to meet these standards over time.

No that's purely my opinion.

I have always believed we have far to many teams in Scotland at all levels.

Teams who take more from the game than they contribute.

Brutal but the benefits of losing teams would hopefully see a better quality at all levels.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

No that's purely my opinion.

I have always believed we have far to many teams in Scotland at all levels.

Teams who take more from the game than they contribute.

Brutal but the benefits of losing teams would hopefully see a better quality at all levels.

So what does the "waste" in Junior football take from the game exactly?

My club would have been considered "waste" 5 years ago (maybe some still think we are) it's a ridiculously arrogant attitude. There aren't too many clubs, there are too many clubs being kept artificially high or low in the "system" due to it's archaic structures.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Auld Heid]

So what does the "waste" in Junior football take from the game exactly?
My club would have been considered "waste" 5 years ago (maybe some still think we are) it's a ridiculously arrogant attitude. There aren't too many clubs, there are too many clubs being kept artificially high or low in the "system" due to it's archaic structures.

Correct - so you addressed that and improved and are trying to thrive.

Other clubs are happy to get past the following week. What benefit do they bring?

Sometimes you need to be tough and say look enough.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Auld Heid said:

 

Correct - so you addressed that and improved and are trying to thrive.

Other clubs are happy to get past the following week. What benefit do they bring?

Sometimes you need to be tough and say look enough.
 

I asked you what they take out of the game?  If they survive week-to-week (as we used to) and hope for better times (as we used to) then that's great, who does it harm exactly because there's certainly no money in the Junior game to deprive anyone of. It's easy as a Linlithgow fan to sit in judgement from a lofty perch.

[parsforlife]

As long as guys are wanting to play football then it's natural for there to be clubs for them to play at. If there is too few players available then a natural cull happens as clubs fold. When there is too many players without clubs new teams form. This provcess is happening all the time at the bottom end of amateur football.

 

[RobM]

20 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Do you not think that fans, players and officals of Preston Athletic, Whitehill Welfare, Spartans, Selkirk, Hawick et all also enjoy the community aspect of their clubs? They are no different from Junior clubs. Why keep us and them apart?

With the exception of Whitehill there there aren't many supporting any of these clubs.

I go to Lowland League games occasionally and I'd say that largely the junior set-up is better supported than the LL in the main, I counted the crowd at Hawick v Stirling Uni. last season and reckoned there were 32 paying spectators.  No disrespect to those supporters because they are the ones actively supporting their club but I think that in the main you're going to have a job convincing junior clubs that leaving what is a healthy set-up based around the area their clubs play in is worth it to play in a league where take up is that low.

Why would Auchinleck abandon the junior game to go into the current LL set-up?  People touting the pyramid need to understand that it has to offer something to the clubs it wants to attract.  It is a bit half-arsed at the moment.

Edited November 2, 2017 by RobM

[Auld Heid]

I asked you what they take out of the game?  If they survive week-to-week (as we used to) and hope for better times (as we used to) then that's great, who does it harm exactly because there's certainly no money in the Junior game to deprive anyone of. It's easy as a Linlithgow fan to sit in judgement from a lofty perch.

It's simple maths that I base my opinion on.

In a population of 5 million the more teams you have then you dilute standards.

Less teams would increase standards as the better players would be spread out between less teams.

We have small towns with multiple teams in areas of limited population only dilutes standards/money/support. Imagine if just one team the whole town could get behind.

As I said my opinion nothing to do where I come from or support.

I could have used another sport and show the same issues with over provision in a small area. 3 clubs failing to extinction instead of coming together to survive and thrive.

[GLENAFTON93]

51 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

.........it appears to have upset poor Glenafton93 given his negative blob for my post 

Your the only one getting upset, and you lost my support after your Holy Grail post.

[RobM]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

.....and yet all you do is make negative posts without backing up your opinion. At least those who are proposing that the Juniors integrate give valid reasons as to why, and provide examples of how it can work.

 "Tagging onto the bottom will make it a farce" why? another comment without substance.  I've shown how it can work and where we could be in the next 3 to 4 seasons.  There is no magic solution, a merger where clubs enter at the right level would be preferable but you yourself have said in the past that Junior clubs cannot expect to elbow existing EoSFL clubs out of the way!!

 

Tagging Kelty into the EoS is already a farce.  They've racked up a 13-0 win already haven't they?

I wouldn't want to bet that they don't better that.  EoS is a dead rubber this season.

Edited November 2, 2017 by RobM

[stanley]

5 minutes ago, RobM said:

Tagging Kelty into the EoS is already a farce.  They've racked up a 13-0m win already haven't they?

I wouldn't want to bet that they don't better that.  EoS is a dead rubber this season.

Definitely not a guaranteed league win for Kelty Hearts.   Lothian Thistle HV have already beaten them in the Scottish Cup this season (and a couple of seasons ago too).

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Do you actually want to bet on that? Lol

Its a bit harsh to say dead rubber but for the other teams can' be good getting trounced 13-0.

 

Burnieman. It should be a merger we have two grades with good teams and utter shire so getting the best for Scottish football. Adding us onto the bottom just prolongs madness for at least 5 years. Even if Tweedmouth were in East premier they' get gubed.  They aren' going to benefit as a club. Cutting out tiers and regionalisation is the way forward

[stanley]

9 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Would that be the same Lothian Thistle HV that beat SPFL division 2 leaders Stirling Albion?

Yes, why?

[Burnie_man]

27 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Your the only one getting upset, and you lost my support after your Holy Grail post.

What support was that? I'm not the one marking posts down.

The term "Holy Grail" is used by our esteemed SJFA Secretary to defend the Junior grade and beat the Pyramid with, not me. He's used it at AGM's, to paraphrase "Why would a Junior club leave and no longer compete in the Holy Grail", as if it was something that clubs salivate over.

I love the Junior Cup, but it should not be used as some sort of excuse not to integrate with the rest of football.

Anyway, your club are currently drinking from the cup of Senior football and raking the cash in, I'm sure you can see the long term benefits.

[RobM]

Kelty will cruise it over the season.

8 games and their goal difference is already 50+, it'll be well into the sixties after they've played Tweedmouth this weekend.  Heavily skewed set-up with teams at the lower level who wouldn't win their local amateur leagues playing teams (2 anyway) who are leagues above them.  If that isn't farcical I don't know what is.

I hugely respect those who keep Tweedmouth running that said, it can't be easy when they are getting hammered regularly but well done to them for trying to build a club in a town with an SPFL team and other teams in the English pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, RobM said:

With the exception of Whitehill there there aren't many supporting any of these clubs.

I go to Lowland League games occasionally and I'd say that largely the junior set-up is better supported than the LL in the main, I counted the crowd at Hawick v Stirling Uni. last season and reckoned there were 32 paying spectators.  No disrespect to those supporters because they are the ones actively supporting their club but I think that in the main you're going to have a job convincing junior clubs that leaving what is a healthy set-up based around the area their clubs play in is worth it to play in a league where take up is that low.

Why would Auchinleck abandon the junior game to go into the current LL set-up?  People touting the pyramid need to understand that it has to offer something to the clubs it wants to attract.  It is a bit half-arsed at the moment.

You've not really grasped the point.  Nobody is leaving anything, this is about all Junior clubs integrating with other non-league clubs in the same league system (did you look at my example?). 

On the point of Hawick v Selkirk, this overlooks the fact that they are only there because other clubs (Juniors) refuse to take part, the probably wouldn't otherwise be playing at that level. So to use that as a stick to criticise the LL with is a bit disingenuous.

You've also not really addressed the question I asked, why should clubs be kept apart for no good reason? why should Whitehill Welfare be prevented from playing Bonnyrigg Rose? or Preston Athletic from playing Musselburgh?  Is there a good reason why this should continue?

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Auld Heid said:

I have always believed we have far to many teams in Scotland at all levels.

Teams who take more from the game than they contribute.

Brutal but the benefits of losing teams would hopefully see a better quality at all levels.

 

Where do you draw the line though...? 

To use your principle, what if there were only amateur Community Clubs in West Lothian and everybody from the small towns supported Livingston FC as the professional club in the region -  Sell the land for social housing and use the cash to install 3G pitches at the local High School for everyone to use.  The benefit of losing all those 'semi-pro' teams would see better quality and support at the top level which is where it really matters... 

I wonder if Rangers and Celtic really feel the need for Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness, Bathgate, Whitburn etc.

...That was your idea...  

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Che Dail

[Burnie_man]

36 minutes ago, RobM said:

Tagging Kelty into the EoS is already a farce.  They've racked up a 13-0 win already haven't they?

I wouldn't want to bet that they don't better that.  EoS is a dead rubber this season.

Pumpherston beat Kirkcaldy 11-1 in the South Division this season.

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Pumpherston beat Kirkcaldy 11-1 in the South Division this season.

It's the bottom league not the supposed top of East of scotland football

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Burnieman. It should be a merger we have two grades with good teams and utter shire so getting the best for Scottish football. Adding us onto the bottom just prolongs madness for at least 5 years. Even if Tweedmouth were in East premier they' get gubed.  They aren' going to benefit as a club. Cutting out tiers and regionalisation is the way forward

No it doesn't, have a look at my example a couple of pages back, in 2 seasons you'd have one or two Junior clubs in the LL, and 4 or 5 in what is now the EoSFL, 4 seasons from now and you wont be able to tell the difference from what we have now in the Juniors, and the weak clubs will have fallen down the ladder.

The likes of Burntisland and Coldstream could take a voluntary drop to a more suitable level, but they shouldn't be forced. They are SFA members and Licenced and it's not their fault Junior clubs have so far shown little interest.