Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

The short answer is no which you`re free to believe or not. If the meeting was that secret then nobody would know about it would they? Is it possible that it`s the first of what would be a sequence of meetings that would be required to try and lay some groundwork for a solution that would work for the majority if not all of the clubs that something like this would ultimately affect? As I`ve said previously, the notion being floated by BSC is self serving and duplicitous in nature. If there really is to be some sort of change then it needs to be planned/considered and not scribbled on the back of a fag packet before being circulated 20 minutes before a decision is required
 

You sound like you know more than you'll admit to. Quick to defend SJFA and quick to rubbish the BSC idea. Hmmm.

[Che Dail]

20 minutes ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

I’ll make this my final post on the subject.

We have put the idea out there, and will take the flak that comes with it from the more sceptical people. However, I can assure you that everything was done with the best intentions.

I genuinely hope there is change for the better, because Scottish football needs it in my own opinion. How that comes about is up to the guys in power, we can only ask them to look at ways of improving things.

Cheers, and happy New Year.

 

 

Keeping everyone happy will be impossible - you can see that changing a massive organisation such as Scottish Junior Football is a big step with concomitant risk... all the best for 2018!

[Patches O'Houlihan]

15 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

You hope for change, yet you red dot 2 of my posts for being a little sceptical over your self-interest?

I do hope for change, but your comments are way wide of the mark, and I disagree with them. Is that not the point of the like/dislike option??? I apologise if they have caused offence.

The level of scepticism is understandable, and there is only so much I can say to allay those fears of those  who feel that way.

We should all be a little more clearer after the powers that be meet.

 

[GLESGABOY]

3 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

 

You sound like you know more than you'll admit to. Quick to defend SJFA and quick to rubbish the BSC idea. Hmmm.

 

Show me where I`ve defended anyone? I asked if anyone was privvy to the agenda for this "secret meeting" knowing full well what the answer would be. If you know different however I`m happy to be corrected.  If you view the BSC idea as you call it as  anything other than self serving and duplicitous then crack on. For me and it seems a few others as well that scribbling some half assed plan (and I`m using the word plan loosely) on a fag packet before emailing it to some but not all of the clubs it could possibly affect is a non-starter.

[Goalie Hamish]

Show me where I`ve defended anyone? I asked if anyone was privvy to the agenda for this "secret meeting" knowing full well what the answer would be. If you know different however I`m happy to be corrected.  If you view the BSC idea as you call it as  anything other than self serving and duplicitous then crack on. For me and it seems a few others as well that scribbling some half assed plan (and I`m using the word plan loosely) on a fag packet before emailing it to some but not all of the clubs it could possibly affect is a non-starter.

Your posts read like an SJFA statement. Anyway no point arguing as your position is clear.

People need to set aside any bias and ridiculous conspiracy theories and look at a West of Scotland League and what it could offer. Kelty have joined the East version so assuming it mirrors that then it will be attractive to some.

Change will not happen if it's left to the SJFA cronies.

[clash city rocker]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Everyone appears to be losing their shit at BSC, yet I'd be more concerned that TJ and Co are going into a meeting with the SFA in 4 days time without having consulted member clubs (or even telling them).

That's the shambles in all of this, not a few clubs greeting at not getting an email.

Aye but would TJ with his position not have the authority to negotiate on behalf of his member clubs.

[GLESGABOY]

6 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

 

Your posts read like an SJFA statement. Anyway no point arguing as your position is clear.

People need to set aside any bias and ridiculous conspiracy theories and look at a West of Scotland League and what it could offer. Kelty have joined the East version so assuming it mirrors that then it will be attractive to some.

Change will not happen if it's left to the SJFA cronies.

 

You talk about bias and conspiracy theories and then proceed to label the SJFA as cronies????? A WoSL is already a viable prospect but it needs to be put together in a manner that benefits all the clubs.  People keep referencing Kelty and the EoS as though they/that is the benchmark, sorry but it`s not. That works for Kelty but that`s as far as any analysis should go. Any  WoSL should be based on the best points (whatever they are perceived to be) of the other similar leagues and then refined to suit the needs/wishes of the proposed member clubs. It shouldn`t be a mirror image of anything. The reality is that the vast majority of clubs won`t ever be in a position whereby they have decisions to make in relation to pyramid progression/senior utopia and there`s nothing wrong with that. Any WoSL should tick the box for these clubs as well as the minority who may want to give themselves a decision to make in relation to progression. I would also  agree with the previous posts that it  shouldn`t be a starting point/shelter for clubs who see it as a short-cut/back door to something that they currently don`t have access to. It`s not complicated but it`s not as straightforward as some would have you believe .......

 

[Goalie Hamish]

You talk about bias and conspiracy theories and then proceed to label the SJFA as cronies????? A WoSL is already a viable prospect but it needs to be put together in a manner that benefits all the clubs.  People keep referencing Kelty and the EoS as though they/that is the benchmark, sorry but it`s not. That works for Kelty but that`s as far as any analysis should go. Any  WoSL should be based on the best points (whatever they are perceived to be) of the other similar leagues and then refined to suit the needs/wishes of the proposed member clubs. It shouldn`t be a mirror image of anything. The reality is that the vast majority of clubs won`t ever be in a position whereby they have decisions to make in relation to pyramid progression/senior utopia and there`s nothing wrong with that. Any WoSL should tick the box for these clubs as well as the minority who may want to give themselves a decision to make in relation to progression. I would also  agree with the previous posts that it  shouldn`t be a starting point/shelter for clubs who see it as a short-cut/back door to something that they currently don`t have access to. It`s not complicated but it`s not as straightforward as some would have you believe .......
 

Aye cronies. All of a sudden the SJFA are interested and apparently they have a cunning plan, as the threat increases of more member clubs planning to leave like Kelty.

Not aware of any cunning plans over the last few years. Policy on the hoof, the same poor planning you criticise BSC for.

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

 

Aye cronies. All of a sudden the SJFA are interested and apparently they have a cunning plan, as the threat increases of more member clubs planning to leave like Kelty.

Not aware of any cunning plans over the last few years. Policy on the hoof, the same poor planning you criticise BSC for.

Going by the minutes from the November SJFA Management Committee that have been passed around, the cunning plan may not have been fully formulated but they were spitballing these ideas:

(i)    Joint East / West Superleague heading the Junior Pyramid. (Think this was voted on in principal and rejected. Obviously, integration in to the pyramid might change that.)

(ii)    Existing Junior structure, i.e. East and West integrating to Pyramid. (SJFA status quo but parallel to Lowland League.)
(iii)    Existing East and West Juniors feeding in to Lowland League. ( SJFA status quo but feeds in to Lowland League.)
(iv)    North Pyramid, i.e. above Tay – no discussions of note to date on this point. ("Yeah, we're just ignoring that issue.")

[kefc]

 Glesgaboy’s post history is certainly interesting if you look over 50% of his posts are pro SJFA, constantly bleating on about its the clubs and not the SJFAs responsibility to propose, plan and push through change.

TJ is the leader of a 160 club association, if he thinks his job is to wait for clubs to propose action to improve the grade he is the leader of then imo he’s wrong, there’s a complete lack of leadership and respect to the clubs here.

-Its like an M.D. of a business sitting and expecting their staff to plan, propose, lead, come up with ideas and drive changes to the business. That just doesn’t happen, the company would be broken. An M.D. plans, comes up with creative ideas to always improve then it can be left for the staff get on with it.

-Its like a Football Club plodding along waiting for their supporters to come up with an idea to improve the club, it doesn’t happen. Office bearers and leaders of a club look at ways to improve and lead change.

Kelty tried to arrange meetings with TJ on numerous occasions, we tried to get a meeting with all clubs East/West, they were refused. he didn’t think we were serious and 100% thought we wouldn’t leave, we obviously were bold enough to make an easy decision after our research, we lost all faith. We even had a parting shot email upon our EOS acceptance were we were asked if we had read the rules and that 12 months had to be given to resign from the SJFA, which we highlighted was wrong, absolutely staggering.

Some clubs including us in the past were maybe afraid to speak up, the noisy children in the class are never liked. It’s ironic that in just 5 months since we left that there are big discussions being held and TJ will be at the centre of them, after we were degraded publicly by him the landscape hasn’t half changed in such a short space of time making some look silly. Be interesting to see how this pans out.

SJFA must lead, they must be creative in ways to improve always otherwise people will lose faith which in all honesty probably set in years ago. The clubs are the losers here as most are doing some incredible work on and off the pitch by showing, ahem leadership and creative thinking on ways to improve led by the clubs office bearers.

Edited January 1, 2018 by kefc

[Hillonearth]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

(iv)    North Pyramid, i.e. above Tay – no discussions of note to date on this point. ("Yeah, we're just ignoring that issue.")

Regardless of much we've been jawing on here about potential structures in the southern half of the country, this is actually the most salient reason why the pyramid as it stands is dysfunctional.

The SHFL - a closed shop of 18 clubs in an area which at most holds 15% of the population of Scotland and who currently hold 50% of the chances of promotion to the SPFL.

How do you access this if you're an ambitious club outside the current structure?

Well, you don't...the current membership have so far refused to enter into any negotiation to this end.

[kefc]

24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Going by the minutes from the November SJFA Management Committee that have been passed around, the cunning plan may not have been fully formulated but they were spitballing these ideas:

(i)    Joint East / West Superleague heading the Junior Pyramid. (Think this was voted on in principal and rejected. Obviously, integration in to the pyramid might change that.)

(ii)    Existing Junior structure, i.e. East and West integrating to Pyramid. (SJFA status quo but parallel to Lowland League.)
(iii)    Existing East and West Juniors feeding in to Lowland League. ( SJFA status quo but feeds in to Lowland League.)
(iv)    North Pyramid, i.e. above Tay – no discussions of note to date on this point. ("Yeah, we're just ignoring that issue.")

If I’m reading this correctly none of these proposals have Juniors going in below the SFA Affiliated EOS and SOS Leagues. I’d be astounded if Juniors were put in over or beside these 2 Leagues and definitely not the Lowland League, it won’t happen.

Only way Juniors can come in on par would be a WOS League were invites would probably be offered. If a full pyramid was to be agreed then you would think the Junior Leagues would shuffle in under EOS, WOS.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, kefc said:

If I’m reading this correctly none of these proposals have Juniors going in below the SFA Affiliated EOS and SOS Leagues. I’d be astounded if Juniors were put in over or beside these 2 Leagues and definitely not the Lowland League, it won’t happen.

Only way Juniors can come in on par would be a WOS League were invites would probably be offered. If a full pyramid was to be agreed then you would think the Junior Leagues would shuffle in under EOS, WOS.

For me, the top divisions in the Junior regions should be respected as being Tier 6 alongside the EoSFL and SoSFL.  Any East Region teams North of the Tay could either be grandfathered in as East of Scotland teams, or move to the North of Scotland at their equivalent level. 

The standards of the SoSFL and EoSFL gets slated as being "district" level, but amongst them there are clubs that can be the equal of Junior 1st/2nd Tier. I look at Girvan having reached the West Premier as an example. The SoSFL and EoSFL deserve their standing at Tier 6 because they've been a part of the Senior structure before the pyramid was created. There's been talk of queue jumpers, to take that term as an analogy, the majority of those clubs have been in the queue long before the SPFL opened its doors ajar.

So you either compromise and merge the Superleagues with the EoSFL/SoSFL as equals, creating Tier 6 and Tier 7 in the East & West.  Or run the Superleagues in parallel with the EoSFL and SoSFL and work out a more nuanced merger down the line.

 

[RabidAl]

38 minutes ago, kefc said:

If I’m reading this correctly none of these proposals have Juniors going in below the SFA Affiliated EOS and SOS Leagues. I’d be astounded if Juniors were put in over or beside these 2 Leagues and definitely not the Lowland League, it won’t happen.

Only way Juniors can come in on par would be a WOS League were invites would probably be offered. If a full pyramid was to be agreed then you would think the Junior Leagues would shuffle in under EOS, WOS.

Bear in mind that the LL itself is being overhauled this summer in order to allow colts teams from Celtic and Rangers to participate as an outcome from Project 'rave.  Hibernian and Aberdeen may yet have an involvement in this, too. 

What this change to the LL will leave for the rest is unclear, as it would depend upon whether the LL will go forward with 18 teams, 2 divisions, regionalise, or some other combination (e.g. 10-12 team LL, followed by LL west & LL east that ask for applications from clubs committed to being licenced within 18 months, with new WoSFL and EoSFL slotting in beneath). 

At any rate, there is plenty of time for clubs to have their say before anything is finalised (usually in the summer) and if BSCG's proposal achieves nothing else then it has at least encouraged Mr Johnston to state publicly that the SJFA are in discussions with the SFA, LL and HL about junior clubs' participation in the pyramid.  BSC probably sent a draft of their proposal to a few clubs with whom they have contacts as an initial 'sounding out' exercise, and what we have seen so far is just the introduction of that draft proposal.

[kefc]

16 minutes ago, RabidAl said:

Bear in mind that the LL itself is being overhauled this summer in order to allow colts teams from Celtic and Rangers to participate as an outcome from Project 'rave.  Hibernian and Aberdeen may yet have an involvement in this, too. 

What this change to the LL will leave for the rest is unclear, as it would depend upon whether the LL will go forward with 18 teams, 2 divisions, regionalise, or some other combination (e.g. 10-12 team LL, followed by LL west & LL east that ask for applications from clubs committed to being licenced within 18 months, with new WoSFL and EoSFL slotting in beneath). 

At any rate, there is plenty of time for clubs to have their say before anything is finalised (usually in the summer) and if BSCG's proposal achieves nothing else then it has at least encouraged Mr Johnston to state publicly that the SJFA are in discussions with the SFA, LL and HL about junior clubs' participation in the pyramid.  BSC probably sent a draft of their proposal to a few clubs with whom they have contacts as an initial 'sounding out' exercise, and what we have seen so far is just the introduction of that draft proposal.

You got intel that Colts going into LL as certain?

As far as we are aware LL would never go to 18 teams and there’s an integrity issue where a club like ours makes the biggest decision of its history to start at the bottom of the pyramid and try to progress on merit.

Edited January 1, 2018 by kefc

[cowdenbeath]

1 minute ago, kefc said:

You got intel that Colts going into LL as certain?

as far as we are aware LL would never go to 18 teams and there’s an integrity issues where a club like ours makes the biggest decision of its history to start at the bottom of the pyramid and try to progress on merit.

I remember last season a story was doing the rounds that there would be an SPFL "League 3" with Colts teams (hate that name) and Lowland League sides never ever heard it mentioned by anyone again. 

[kefc]

5 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

I remember last season a story was doing the rounds that there would be an SPFL "League 3" with Colts teams (hate that name) and Lowland League sides never ever heard it mentioned by anyone again. 

I know it’s not popular but I think the Colts idea is a good one for the development of better players which in turn will hopefully strengthen the national team. Where they would go is a toughy.

Maybe a new improved TV deal with BT (strangely negotiations have begun really early) will be coupled with a total revamp of the Scottish game, possibly a new league setup including Colts with summer football.

Edited January 1, 2018 by kefc

[cowdenbeath]

1 minute ago, kefc said:

I know it’s not popular but I think the Colts idea is a good one for the development of better players which in turn will hopefully strengthen the national team. Where they would go is a toughy.

Maybe a new improved TV deal with BT (strangely negotiations have begun really early) will be coupled with a total revamp of the Scottish game, possibly a new league setup with summer football.

You'll have HJ along pointing out all the things on how summer football would never work although with the Betfred Cup it's almost an all year round thing with no almost time to play PSFs.

I would agree that young players should be playing in something more challenging than the current development league you can play against the same players from when your 8 until your 19-20 just flatline doing that.

It would be a hard one putting them in a national system would think the majority of League 2 sides wouldn't want them don't know what the LL sides would think of it EOSL has a history of reserve sides being in it - Cowden reserves won it once

[cmontheloknow]

Unless the standard magically changes, youre still faced with the reality that most players in an SPFL Premier U20 side will not go on to have full-time football careers, let alone be making up international sides. An extension of the loan system would seem, to me anyway, just as effective as having these guys playing L2 football week in, week out out for a Colt outfit. JUst as a random selection, of Dundee Utd's U20s in 13-14 (who did not play a 1st team game that season), I can see 3 still playing full-time.

[energyzone]

I suspect 2018 will bring about significant change, but it will involve Junior clubs having to jump ship rather than integrate with the Pyramid in an orderly manner.
The WoSFL is a solid idea and the SJFA should engage positively with it, but then again who knows, the SJFA doesn't consult its members. Clubs should be up in arms at this.

Integration could happen if the clubs present a united front (if common ground can be found). As with everything, the clubs hold the power and not the SJFA. If a good number of top clubs approach the authorities and demand a WOS league then it will happen. The ones that are left behind will go eventually.