Junior football, what is the future?

[archieb]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

For it to be a Pyramid then you need promotion and relegation, and given the fact that promotion to the EoSFL (or a future WoSFL) from the leagues below wouldn't involve being Licenced, then there really isn't anything to be concerned about for Junior clubs, it's just another division above, just another promotion.  As people keep pointing out, for 90% of Junior clubs nothing much would change on a weekly basis to what they have now.

 

IMO there will/would be 3 things for junior clubs to be concerned about and regarding which assurances would be needed:

1. No compulsory promotion

2. Relegation would be to an appropriate league & division

3. Continued access to the Junior Cup or its successor tournament

[Sergeant Wilson]

45 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Putting typos and forgivable errors to one side, there is nothing wrong with:

We are interested in starting a West of Scotland League that will mirror the East & South of Scotland leagues in what is effectively the 6th Tier of the Scottish Football pyramid.  This would create a local alternative route for ambitious [West] Clubs.

There seems to be significant interest in pyramid in the West region  with participation in the SoS league being the main barrier so far.  This proposal is therefore a logical step forward.  Junior clubs wishing to progress can join the league and others wishing to stay put can do so. 

I don't think there's a suggestion that clubs would be falling in line behind anyone - this is an open invite for positive collaboration with clubs who are already engaged with the LL and keen to promote it - it doesn't need to be adversarial.

I understand that completely, but the message undermines the intent. You wouldn't change your bank account to a new one if the offer letter was full of mistakes.

I think Juniors should be open to a restructure of non league football but not at all costs. 

[FairWeatherFan]

41 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Anyone got a link to the Sunday Mail article? couldn't see anything online.

Introducing a WoSFL is a no brainer, the tricky bit is getting the SJFA to co-operate to allow relegation between that and the Junior Superleague.  If that agreement was to be reached, then there would need to be reciprocal arrangements with EoSFL and the East Superleague.  It also calls into question the arrangement between the HFL and the North Juniors.

Depends what this 5th Jan meeting is going to cover. As someone else pointed out, the LL was put in place with 6 weeks notice so getting a WoSFL off the ground for next season is easy,

Couldn't find a link myself or take a good enough photo.

Breakaway league bid stuns west junior sides

Alan Robertson

Junior football is set to be rocked by plans for a breakaway feeder league into the senior game.

Top team Kilwinning Rangers are researching whether the new league is viable and if others follow suit junior football in the west could be devastated.

Junior and amateur sides are being urged to start a new West of Scotland League by Lowland outfit BSC Glasgow.

The set-up would mimic the South and East of Scotland leagues. Clubs would ender the sixth tier of the SPFL pyramid aiming for promotion to the Lowland then League Two in the seniors.

BSC chairman Steven Prince, who wants to put a reserve side in the league, claimed a couple of clubs who have expressed an interest "would be the Man Uniteds of the Lowland League".

Kilwinning have been asked to look into the plan by their committee, management team and supporters' club.

Chairman Colin Boyd said: "In terms of the popularity vote it's come at bang the right time. We've had two home league fixtures in four months so everbody is quite upset at the moment.

"The juniors aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing - we're supposed to have a fixtures until the end of March, we're not getting that.

"There have been games off forever, a lot of clubs are struggling and nobody seems to be able to try and help them.

"The game is just not modernising at all and although personally I don't see this as the ideal solution, we have to look at something that might involve the club in future. I don't think anybody is wanting to get rid of the juniors or the history but everybody is looking over their shoulder now."

Kilbirnie Ladeside confirmed they are not interested in BSC's proposal.

The dramatic move comes as junior chiefs prepare to sit down with the SFA, Lowland and Highland leagues on Thursday to discuss possible involvement of clubs in the pyramid.

SJFA secretary Tom Johnston said: "The difference between ours and BSC's is we are in negotiation, in discussion, about it. It is not somebody with a shotgun picking holes in what is there just now and putting up proposals without any kudos."

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, archieb said:

IMO there will/would be 3 things for junior clubs to be concerned about and regarding which assurances would be needed:

1. No compulsory promotion

2. Relegation would be to an appropriate league & division

3. Continued access to the Junior Cup or its successor tournament

1. Why not? as I said you'd be moving into just another league, probably filled with Junior clubs anyway, and no Licence required.  Fair enough if you mean between eg. WoSFL and LL

2. Relegation would be to the next level down surely, why wouldn't it?

3. That should be a given.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

SJFA secretary Tom Johnston said: "The difference between ours and BSC's is we are in negotiation, in discussion, about it. It is not somebody with a shotgun picking holes in what is there just now and putting up proposals without any kudos."

Aye, because you've been such a cheerleader for integration in the past

[Che Dail]

24 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You wouldn't change your bank account to a new one if the offer letter was full of mistakes.

It would depend on what incentives were being offered... If it was going to make me better off in the long term then I'd probably let some missing apostrophes and typos slide...

 

[Hillonearth]

26 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

SJFA secretary Tom Johnston said: "The difference between ours and BSC's is we are in negotiation, in discussion, about it. It is not somebody with a shotgun picking holes in what is there just now and putting up proposals without any kudos."

Picking holes with a shotgun? Odd choice of words.

Sufficiently odd that this is the first thing that came to mind when I read that paragraph:

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It would depend on what incentives were being offered... If it was going to make me better off in the long term then I'd probably let some missing apostrophes and typos slide...

 

Would you treat it as credible, if it had factual errors? If you intend to persuade clubs to make such a big move, you need to avoid situations like this.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, Hillonearth said:

Picking holes with a shotgun? Odd choice of words.

Sufficiently odd that this is the first thing that came to mind when I read that paragraph:

And to balance the argument Johnstone comes out with something equally ill conceived. Both sides illustrate why the likes of Reagan and Doncaster get away with the shite they do.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

If you intend to persuade clubs to make such a big move, you need to avoid situations like this.

Yes - and I'm sure BSC would agree with that too - they've already apologised for the errors and said the wrong draft went out, it wasn't checked etc etc.  

Just to be picky on a point of detail, it was an email and not a letter - there's something a bit less formal about digital correspondence, and immediate - once it's gone, it's gone - maybe the urgency or 'haste' in which it was sent was something to do with putting sounders out ahead of the SFA meeting on 5th January, the one that NOBODY in Junior football has been consulted on for their views.

The BSC 'intent' is big-picture stuff about initiating change and in my opinion the guy should be applauded for standing up and starting something that should've been done years ago by others.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

Yes - and I'm sure BSC would agree with that too - they've already apologised for the errors and said the wrong draft went out, it wasn't checked etc etc.  

Just to be picky on a point of detail, it was an email and not a letter - there's something a bit less formal about digital correspondence, and immediate - once it's gone, it's gone - maybe the urgency or 'haste' in which it was sent was something to do with putting sounders out ahead of the SFA meeting on 5th January, the one that NOBODY in Junior football has been consulted on for their views.

The BSC 'intent' is big-picture stuff about initiating change and in my opinion the guy should be applauded for standing up and starting something that should've been done years ago by others.

The letter referred to was the hypothetical one from a bank. That was used to illustrate the lack of professionalism, and therefore credibility, in the BSC email. Sending the wrong draft compounds that. Everyone makes mistakes, but when the issue is so important, a bit more care is needed.

In addition, I particularly didn't like the idea in the article quoted, suggesting BSC were looking to include a reserve team in the new division. Looking at both issues together, are you running, before you can walk?

[FairWeatherFan]

Yeah, it does seem that BSC taking the lead on the WoSFL comes from being rejected from running a Junior side. They want to run a second XI at a decent level and they don't fancy the SoSFL. Hopefully enough interest is there that any WoSFL can avoid reserves/colts in its first season. 

Regardless of why this has happened, i'm glad it has as it might of engaged more clubs & fans in progressing the pyramid.

[archieb]

14 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I particularly didn't like the idea in the article quoted, suggesting BSC were looking to include a reserve team in the new division.

Indeed so,  allowing LL reserve and SPFL Colt sides into a WoSL would make it a far less attractive proposition for leading Junior clubs.

As it is, the number of clubs in the LL with minimal away following for their FIRST teams is already offputting.

 

[tell_me_more]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

For it to be a Pyramid then you need promotion and relegation, and given the fact that promotion to the EoSFL (or a future WoSFL) from the leagues below wouldn't involve being Licenced, then there really isn't anything to be concerned about for Junior clubs, it's just another division above, just another promotion.  As people keep pointing out, for 90% of Junior clubs nothing much would change on a weekly basis to what they have now.

 

I'm sure Junior Clubs remaining would have no objections with the relegated teams going straight into the bottom league, they never won promotion to begin with so are in a false position so why should they be relegated into the top junior leagues that they were never promoted from?
The draft from BSc or whoever is embarassing with the errors, and I don't mean grammatical.

For the pyramid to have any form of credibility whatsoever the whole junior set up would have to be integrated. The wos premier league is far superior to the sos so again levels would need reviewed carefully, for a supposed better more professional set up its been a bit of a dogs breakfast so far.

[theshed]

Can only speak for myself and nothing to do with the club I support but when BSC are trying to lead the way I'm a bit sceptical, a club that doesn't have its own ground , that play up in alloa in front of 40 fans at most aren't a club that I hold in high regard one bit , they're a shambles to me .

[Goalie Hamish]

I'm sure Junior Clubs remaining would have no objections with the relegated teams going straight into the bottom league, they never won promotion to begin with so are in a false position so why should they be relegated into the top junior leagues that they were never promoted from?

 

 

For the pyramid to have any form of credibility whatsoever the whole junior set up would have to be integrated.

 

You're contradicting yourself somewhat, if a West of Scotland League is formed there will be some top Junior clubs go into it, therefore promotion/relegation to it from the Superleague is entirely natural, and pulls everything together ie integration.

 

 

 

 

[Goalie Hamish]

Can only speak for myself and nothing to do with the club I support but when BSC are trying to lead the way I'm a bit sceptical, a club that doesn't have its own ground , that play up in alloa in front of 40 fans at most aren't a club that I hold in high regard one bit , they're a shambles to me .

That's a fair point, but who cares who the messenger is as long as it pushes people to start discussions. As for the email, again who cares if it was written in crayon on the back of a fag packet.

[Goalie Hamish]

Indeed so,  allowing LL reserve and SPFL Colt sides into a WoSL would make it a far less attractive proposition for leading Junior clubs.
As it is, the number of clubs in the LL with minimal away following for their FIRST teams is already offputting.
 

If this league happens it will probably be somewhere between 12-16 clubs, so having BSC Reserves and Rangers and Celtic Colts is only 3 clubs. The latter two would bring some support through the gate. I read yesterday that Kilwinning had a grand total of 40 fans at Talbot.

[parkcircus]

2 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

 

If this league happens it will probably be somewhere between 12-16 clubs, so having BSC Reserves and Rangers and Celtic Colts is only 3 clubs. The latter two would bring some support through the gate. I read yesterday that Kilwinning had a grand total of 40 fans at Talbot.

 

The buses were cancelled due to the cold weather and the game likely being off, in fairness Talbot didn’t have much more

[theshed]

The buses were cancelled due to the cold weather and the game likely being off, in fairness Talbot didn’t have much more

And also of course that the big boys team were playing that kilwinning people are mad on.